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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There's the cops line about there being a "new kind of mean in him" when they find the sex trafficker bound and one of the conversations with Alfred brings it up.

    Not every kill batman makes in BvS is a murder was my point. In the warehouse he isn't in an armored vehicle and didn't have time to plan a way to get her out without lethal force. Even in the car chase, the thugs are the ones shooting him first. Even ignoring that, Snyder at least knows Bruce is killing people and doesn't pretend otherwise.

    And yes Bruce does kill people in Miller's TDKR. Unless you want to tell me dropping bombs on people and shooting people doesn't kill them.
    The branding being new has no bearing on whether killing is new.

    When Batman shoots people in TDKR it's specified to be with rubber bullets, and he doesn't bomb people. He makes a big impassioned speech speech about how bad guns are, and one of the central conflicts is his desire to finally break his 'one rule.' He's brutal, but he doesn't kill anyone.

    And even if it were definitively proven that Batman only started killing recently in the film, which it hasn't been, it still doesn't change the fact that the central conflict and the Martha moment would have been far more powerful and just plain better if Superman was the only person he ever considered killing in the movie.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Seems a good scene. Why they cut all the interesting Superman scenes?
    I read that they cut the scene because it was too dark.. I can see that, Superman would be super angsty once again, feeling so guilty for wanting to save HIS MOTHER instead of other people..

    My problem with this scene is that it shows Snyder's strong tendency to show Superman having more inner conflict instead of coming up with ideas to show his inspirational side. BvS is basically all Superman having inner struggles and no light-hearted stuff.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I read that they cut the scene because it was too dark.. I can see that, Superman would be super angsty once again, feeling so guilty for wanting to save HIS MOTHER instead of other people..

    My problem with this scene is that it shows Snyder's strong tendency to show Superman having more inner conflict instead of coming up with ideas to show his inspirational side. BvS is basically all Superman having inner struggles and no light-hearted stuff.
    I think the problem was in the execution: Superman had inner conflicts but never really elaborate on what's going on in his mind and just went around with a sad face without saying a word. The character's inner struggle needed to be expressed through words/acting.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I think the problem was in the execution: Superman had inner conflicts but never really elaborate on what's going on in his mind and just went around with a sad face without saying a word. The character's inner struggle needed to be expressed through words/acting.
    I think he did express his inner struggle well enough to Lois, to Ma Kent and also with his imaginary Pa Kent scene.

    The problem to me was that it was all about how conflicted he was. All about his angst. We were told in Justice League that Superman was a beacon to the world, but IMO, Snyder didn't truly establish him as that beacon in BvS. For instance, Death of Superman did a much better work in less time. BvS was too busy doing world building the extended universe.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I think he did express his inner struggle well enough to Lois, to Ma Kent and also with his imaginary Pa Kent scene.
    Clark expressed more his thoughts on journalism than anything Superman related. He shared 2 short sentences with Lois, and passively listened to Martha and Jonathan's monologues. His character was underwritten.

    The problem to me was that it was all about how conflicted he was. All about his angst. We were told in Justice League that Superman was a beacon to the world, but IMO, Snyder didn't truly establish him as that beacon in BvS. For instance, Death of Superman did a much better work in less time. BvS was too busy doing world building the extended universe.
    I agree on the bold part. It's like a whole movie is missing between MoS and BvS that establish this Superman.
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; Yesterday at 12:18 PM.

  6. #36
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    And even if it were definitively proven that Batman only started killing recently in the film, which it hasn't been, it still doesn't change the fact that the central conflict and the Martha moment would have been far more powerful and just plain better if Superman was the only person he ever considered killing in the movie.
    Actually making Batman go that low and such a dark path in his life makes his redemption thanks to Superman much more powerful, because Superman lifts him from the very bottom of Hell's pit. Zack Snyder said on Vero that a little momet when Batman comes out of rublle with fire/light behind him was meant to visually portray how he was reborn by witnessing such bravery and sacrifice in Superman. Saving Batman just from the verge of something was done countless times, nobody saved him from the bottom before though until BvS.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wonder Woman 77 and Batman 66 aren't exactly that popular nowadays either. Especially the former. Smallville's reputation has also greatly suffered recently and the comic sales weren't very strong. None of the Snyder films were flops. Not commercially anyway.
    I got to defend my boy Adam hey Batman Return of the Cape Crusaders got a direct solo sequel not even MOS can say that.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Clark expressed more his thoughts on journalism than anything Superman related. He shared 2 short sentences with Lois, and passively listened to Martha and Jonathan's monologues. His character was underwritten.



    I agree on the bold part. It's like a whole movie is missing between MoS and BvS that establish this Superman.
    I disagree that he was passively listening to them. Clark's scene with Pa Kent was very touching to me. I felt like there was a lot in his mind and heart. And I don't think that a person needs to say a lot to be meaningful. It's the way you say it.

    But yes I agree that Cavill Superman totally needed a direct solo sequel after MOS. It's a big shame WB decided to rush the universe instead of giving Superman proper development as a character. That was their biggest mistake.

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