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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Default Christopher Nolan thoughts on Snyder's Superman

    He praises and seems very proud of Zack Snyder's Superman movie. Not sure when he said this, but I think it was about Man of Steel only. I wonder what he really thinks now, and what his thoughts on BvS are..

    IMO, if Nolan thinks MOS was that good, then he doesn't fully get the character. He gets Batman a lot more. I also understand that Nolan and David Goyer wrote the story in MOS, but I also understand that Snyder had a lot of input as the director with his own ideas like the way General Zod died.

    In general, I feel Nolan and Snyder's vision for Superman was too gritty and somber. That was great for Batman, but Superman needs more joy, imo.





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    Last edited by stargazer01; 11-07-2018 at 05:46 PM.

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    This is something I said before but I feel like I should say again: I will enjoy the DC Extended Universe for asking people the hard questions about Superman. What is so iconic about Superman? What do we love about him? I think this is a very exploration of Superman and his community, and it means that people will no longer take Superman for granted. Superman has been with us for 80 years and for a long time, he has faced the risk of becoming a parody of himself. Hopefully, the DC Extended Universe will move forward and Superman will get a new movie.

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    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Given that Nolan was opposed Snyder & Goyer's idea to have Superman snap Zod's neck instead of getting sucked back into the Phantom Zone (which was the original plan), I don't think Nolan was all that enamored with the direction Snyder took the character. Nolan was pretty adamant that they couldn't approach Superman with the same dark sensibility they took with Batman. The fact that Nolan wasn't really involved with the films after Man of Steel is also pretty telling.

    Granted, you could chalk all this up to Nolan not being particularly interested in superheroes aside from their ability to give him the money and clout necessary to make the kinds of films he is interested in. I don't think a Superman film by Christopher Nolan would be particularly good, either, as he's not a warm or hopeful guy. He's a cool analytical and dispassionate guy, which suited Batman quite nicely. That said, he should get credit for understanding that Snyder's ability to visualize superheroes on film is unparalleled, but that Snyder's understanding of what is and isn't appropriate for Superman was iffy.

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    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    In one of the interviews Zack Snyder said that the approach to creating Man of Steel was "lets pretend that this is first Superman film ever" and I think he took it further than that. He approached Superman as a mythological figure and took lots of liberties while adapting him as if like character was thousands years old. Thus he kind of created his own version of Superman from scratch. Man of Steel is not a literal adaptation of any known Superman story, on the contrary it's a brand new story told with known characters. So if I look at Man of Steel as an original film, you can't complain about that he didn't get Superman right or that he doesn't understand him. It's his version, his vision of a character with history worth a century.

    When you ask Superman fan how he likes his Superman, he most likely won't name a particular story. He will describe a compilation of Supermen that he holds in his head as a single character. MoS is also a compilation that Zack Snyder picked up from and formed his story and his characters based on their history.

    You know how there is a notion that Superman is boring because he is all good, perfect and doesn't have anything to be actually troubled with? MoS leaves perfect and troubleless out, but keeps all good. In one of the interviews Zack Snyder said that Superman is cool because he is all good and that people thinking that being all good is boring is kinda crazy, Superman is a grand scale volunteer and volunteer is something that we all can be. MoS just shows that being all good is not always easy even for someone like Superman, that its major difference.

    Man of Steel/Snyderverse is an Elseworld and one of the best ones.
    Last edited by GreatKungLao; 11-08-2018 at 02:08 AM.

  5. #5
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    In of the interviews Zack Snyder said that the approach to creating Man of Steel was "lets pretend that this is first Superman film ever" and I think he took it further than that. He approached Superman as a mythological figure and took lots of liberties while adapting him as if like character was thousands years old. Thus he kind of created his own version of Superman from scratch. Man of Steel is not a literal adaptation of any known Superman story, on the contrary it's a brand new story told with known characters. So if I look at Man of Steel as an original film, you can't complain about that he didn't get Superman right or that he doesn't understand him. It's his version, his vision of a character with history worth a century.

    When you ask Superman fan how he likes his Superman, he most likely won't name a particular story. He will describe a compilation of Supermen that he holds in his head as a single character. MoS is also a compilation that Zack Snyder picked up from and formed his story and his characters based on their history.

    You know how there is a notion that Superman is boring because he is all good, perfect and doesn't have anything to be actually troubled with? MoS leaves perfect and troubleless out, but keeps all good. In one of the interviews Zack Snyder said that Superman is cool because he is all good and that people thinking that being all good is boring is kinda crazy, Superman is a grand scale volunteer and volunteer isus something that we all can be. MoS just shows that being all good is not always easy even for someone like Superman, that its major difference.

    Man of Steel/Snyderverse is an Elseworld and one of the best ones.
    It would be very interesting to see how Snyder's Man of Steel would have been received had it not been about a guy named "Superman".

    That said, it couldn't have happened any other way because there's no way that Snyder would have gotten the budget to make a film this expensive about an original IP, and I'm not sure if the film would work as well because it leans so heavily on the iconic weight of Superman as one of the great modern pop cultural myths to fill in the blanks on a somewhat weak underwritten script that is buoyed by Snyder's amazing ability to create stunning superhero imagery on screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroVladimir93 View Post
    This is something I said before but I feel like I should say again: I will enjoy the DC Extended Universe for asking people the hard questions about Superman. What is so iconic about Superman? What do we love about him? I think this is a very exploration of Superman and his community, and it means that people will no longer take Superman for granted. Superman has been with us for 80 years and for a long time, he has faced the risk of becoming a parody of himself. Hopefully, the DC Extended Universe will move forward and Superman will get a new movie.
    Agreed.

    I think one of the reasons why most people today 'get' Batman in the way they don't 'get' Superman is that Batman gets to be a person, while Superman HAS to be a symbol. What Snyder did with Superman is pretty close to what Nolan, and actually a lot of writers since the 80's, did with Batman. Approach him as a person, and not as an icon, and explore his motivations, his inner psyche and his vulnerabilities. And also envision how their stories would play out in the 'real world'.

    Realistically, a small-town couple raising a child with extraordinary abilities that would freak out everyone around him would be more likely to encourage the child to hide his abilities from a hostile world, than spend his entire childhood preaching to him to become a selfless hero. Realistically, whan a man who's basically a walking WMD shows up, the military are more likely to want to identify him as a potential hostile threat, and large parts of humanity are likely to view him as an existential threat, than for everyone to just cheer on him as some new Guardian Angel and ask him to save their cats from trees.

    And even when he's been around a while, opinion around him is likely to be split between those who still view him as a threat, and those who think he's the Messiah come to earth. That sequence in BvS with Clark saving the crowds during the fire in Mexico and the news stories and commentary on Superman and his place in the world is one of my all-time favorite Superman scenes.

    I think Superman, by and large, has been handled pretty well in the DCEU - except for a somewhat diminshed focus in BvS which had more to do with the direction of that film than the treatment of the character.

  7. #7
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    It would be very interesting to see how Snyder's Man of Steel would have been received had it not been about a guy named "Superman".

    That said, it couldn't have happened any other way because there's no way that Snyder would have gotten the budget to make a film this expensive about an original IP, and I'm not sure if the film would work as well because it leans so heavily on the iconic weight of Superman as one of the great modern pop cultural myths to fill in the blanks on a somewhat weak underwritten script that is buoyed by Snyder's amazing ability to create stunning superhero imagery on screen.
    To me MoS worked exactly because it was about Superman. I find it fascinating to see how else a well known hero can be if done by someone else, it might help me to love the character from band new angles I haven't thought about before. Some new versions of my favorite character can be an absolute turn off for me like Red Son, Kingdom Come or Injustice and I get that for some people MoS is the same as for me those three. Well, to each their own, you can't please every single one, not everyone likes chocolate and not everyone likes vanilla. I hope one day Snyderverse Superman will become an Elseworld comic book series to tell more where films haven't time to go and cover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    To me MoS worked exactly because it was about Superman. I find it fascinating to see how else a well known hero can be if done by someone else, it might help me to love the character from band new angles I haven't thought about before. Some new versions of my favorite character can be an absolute turn off for me like Red Son, Kingdom Come or Injustice and I get that for some people MoS is the same as for me those three. Well, to each their own, you can't please every single one, not everyone likes chocolate and not everyone likes vanilla. I hope one day Snyderverse Superman will become an Elseworld comic book series to tell more where films haven't time to go and cover.
    I suspect that a few years down the line, once all the dust has settled and CGI become less cost prohibitive, we'll see a Snyder Cut of Justice League, and they'll be a digital comic devoted to the Snyderverse like we have with Wonder Woman '77, Batman '66, and Smallville.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Given that Nolan was opposed Snyder & Goyer's idea to have Superman snap Zod's neck instead of getting sucked back into the Phantom Zone (which was the original plan), I don't think Nolan was all that enamored with the direction Snyder took the character. Nolan was pretty adamant that they couldn't approach Superman with the same dark sensibility they took with Batman. The fact that Nolan wasn't really involved with the films after Man of Steel is also pretty telling.

    Granted, you could chalk all this up to Nolan not being particularly interested in superheroes aside from their ability to give him the money and clout necessary to make the kinds of films he is interested in. I don't think a Superman film by Christopher Nolan would be particularly good, either, as he's not a warm or hopeful guy. He's a cool analytical and dispassionate guy, which suited Batman quite nicely. That said, he should get credit for understanding that Snyder's ability to visualize superheroes on film is unparalleled, but that Snyder's understanding of what is and isn't appropriate for Superman was iffy.
    That's so untrue. Each of those Batman movies, and certainly Batman himself, is driven by a sense of hope and compassion for and faith in the people of Gotham. He may be a dark, fractured man, but that's what was at his center. Even TDK, with it's dark ending, finishes on a sense of hope and inspiration. Nolan's Batman was a better Superman than Snyder's Superman.

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    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansupes View Post
    Nolan's Batman was a better Superman than Snyder's Superman.
    But BvS Batman is a much better plot device than Superman in DKR. The main theme of BvS in my opinion is fear and how fear allows to manipulate perception through media. It also tells about how fear takes away hope and how Batman viewed Superman that he is fearless only because he has super powers and doesn't have to fear for his well being among mere mortals. Which is why he emphasised during the fight "Breath in. That's fear. You are not brave. Men are brave". And so when he witnessed Superman's sacrifice against an obstacle he wasn't invulnerable against, he was inspired by his example and he got hope back.

    The film starts with "A beautiful lie" and ends with "Men are still good".

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    He praises and seems very proud of Zack Snyder's Superman movie. Not sure when he said this, but I think it was about Man of Steel only. I wonder what he really thinks now, and what his thoughts on BvS are..

    IMO, if Nolan thinks MOS was that good, then he doesn't fully get the character. He gets Batman a lot more. I also understand that Nolan and David Goyer wrote the story in MOS, but I also understand that Snyder had a lot of input as the director with his own ideas like the way General Zod died.

    In general, I feel Nolan and Snyder's vision for Superman was too gritty and somber. That was great for Batman, but Superman needs more joy, imo.





    More here:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrGjp3AU8AE4PH-.jpg

    I think this is a classic "half an answer for Hollywood publicity" type of answer. He's leaving out the "but..." of that statement. And, much as I dislike Snyder's general tendencies for Superman, the Nolan quote isn't wrong. For as much as Snyder gets blazingly wrong, there are significant things he gets right. He just can't be the only cook allowed in the kitchen because he throws too much into the soup too quickly and ruins it (aka 4-hour initial cuts of movies, too many plot points to proper growth etc). If he'd had someone in there who could guide his hand a bit better (and not WB, they have no idea what they're doing), the DCEU could have been everything Marvel's universe has been in just 5 movies or so. But when you have one guy that needs guidance paired with a corporate guide who's lost in the woods without a clue... it is what it is. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansupes View Post
    That's so untrue. Each of those Batman movies, and certainly Batman himself, is driven by a sense of hope and compassion for and faith in the people of Gotham. He may be a dark, fractured man, but that's what was at his center. Even TDK, with it's dark ending, finishes on a sense of hope and inspiration. Nolan's Batman was a better Superman than Snyder's Superman.
    I agree that Batman is driven by hope and compassion, but that's buried deep under a layer of cool, dispassionate logic. There's certainly a beating heart at the core of Nolan films, but everything surrounding it is a precise switch watch that doesn't like to show much warmth. That isn't Superman.

  13. #13
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Given that Nolan was opposed Snyder & Goyer's idea to have Superman snap Zod's neck instead of getting sucked back into the Phantom Zone (which was the original plan), I don't think Nolan was all that enamored with the direction Snyder took the character. Nolan was pretty adamant that they couldn't approach Superman with the same dark sensibility they took with Batman. The fact that Nolan wasn't really involved with the films after Man of Steel is also pretty telling.

    Granted, you could chalk all this up to Nolan not being particularly interested in superheroes aside from their ability to give him the money and clout necessary to make the kinds of films he is interested in. I don't think a Superman film by Christopher Nolan would be particularly good, either, as he's not a warm or hopeful guy. He's a cool analytical and dispassionate guy, which suited Batman quite nicely. That said, he should get credit for understanding that Snyder's ability to visualize superheroes on film is unparalleled, but that Snyder's understanding of what is and isn't appropriate for Superman was iffy.
    Batman is a totally passionate and hopeful guy in all those films. Literally his entire story is about not giving up hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Batman is a totally passionate and hopeful guy in all those films. Literally his entire story is about not giving up hope.
    I can see that interpretation, but I don't really look at the Nolan Batman films like that. The first one, Batman Begins, is about overcoming your fears, The Dark Knight is about the sacrifices are necessary to be a hero, and Rises is about legacy. Your mileage may vary though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I suspect that a few years down the line, once all the dust has settled and CGI become less cost prohibitive, we'll see a Snyder Cut of Justice League, and they'll be a digital comic devoted to the Snyderverse like we have with Wonder Woman '77, Batman '66, and Smallville.
    I don't see how. Wonder Woman 77 and Batman 66 were iconic, era defining TV shows. Smallville was a popular show.

    The Snyderverse, more often than not, swayed between being polarizing, critically bashed, or outright flops, with Wonder Woman being the only success story because it was largely everything the Snyder films (and Suicide Squad) weren't. DC/WB isn't investing time and money to extend a version that ultimately left them with egg on their face.

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