Swordsmen battle

[Coin Biter]

Hmm, this is interesting

I’ll think of a few of them that interest me:

1. Live action Jaime Lannister is all Hat and no Cattle. He has about two fights in which he has two hands - one with Ned, in which he’s underwhelming, and one with Brienne, in which he’s easily defeated. Sure, by statements he is supposed to be an impressive fighter, and apparently did some impressive things off screen in the Battle in the Whispering Wood, but it’s difficult to think that he’ll rank very high with the others on this list. OK, he has nice armour, but plate’s not shown to be as effective in the show as it is in the books.

2. Inigo Montoya and Zorro. They use rapiers*, right? Hmm. In practice, I think that might make them two of the most dangerous against unarmored opponents. A rapier is a real man-killer, and with its thrusting style and reach would make them really lethal against someone like Beatrice Kiddo who uses a katana, given the apparent success in reported duels. That said, she’s a character from a style of movie who has some absurd scenes of agility and skill so it might not be enough. They might also be accurate enough to find joints in a suit of armour, come to think of it. (I can’t remember whether Jack Sparrow uses a rapier or a cutlass and I loathe those films )

3. Rob Roy. Rob Roy vs Cunningham is one of my favourite sword fights in cinema, but he’s surely desperately outclassed by some of the people here.

4. Achilles. In danger of being underrated I feel, although does the film actually have them use bronze weapons? I can’t recall. Bit of a problem for Achilles if they do.

Who do I think would win? Probably Connor. The immortality is a bit difficult to deal with if they don’t know about it, and no-one with a rapier is decapitating anyone. In the series, being killed actually rendered people senseless for a short while but as has been said, he seems to shake it off pretty easily in the films. And I suppose he does have a hell of a lot of experience.

*I’m using that term imprecisely. They might not technically be rapiers, for all I know, but are in any event thrusting blades.

[Coin Biter]

Although if they did know about Connor’s specific weakness then I guess the Bride or Aragorn, who are best placed to exploit it.

[The Chou Lives]

Although if they did know about Connor’s specific weakness then I guess the Bride or Aragorn, who are best placed to exploit it.

Yes. If everyone knows to behead Connor it becomes more fair. Because I see him, Aragon and the Bride as top dogs here.

[Godzilla2099]

My money is on the Bride.

If you gave Leonidas his spear and shield then I'll lean towards him.

[Hiromi]

Thing is Jaimie just isn't that good. He's a good Swordsman, but not cut down 30+ dudes in a battle.

I'm thinking he gets mordhau'd and then ganked. Or pummeled, then ganked. Assuming he's wearing a helmet.

Funny you say that because that’s exactly what he was doing before he was captured by a fluke if memory serves, carving through soldiers like they were training dummies, it’s been forever but it feels like people forget the dude started out described as a prodigy wizard with a sword

[Ptrvc]

Rapiers are better for one on one duels. (Reach+ability to lock down center line).

They aren't as good for fighting multiple opponents though, as the lack of cutting power becomes apparent.

There is a reason why rapiers were used in duels and civilian contexts ate the same time sabers were being used for battle.

Also rapiers especially later ones usually lacked the rigidity you would want if you were trying to burst mail, or punch through a gambeson. Not impossible, but worth noting.

[Ptrvc]

Funny you say that because that’s exactly what he was doing before he was captured by a fluke if memory serves, carving through soldiers like they were training dummies, it’s been forever but it feels like people forget the dude started out described as a prodigy wizard with a sword

I remember the books better, but Westeros tends to have a much realistic portrayal of what a single man can do with a sword.

Maybe if he's fully armored and cutting down unarmored peasants.

[Coin Biter]

Funny you say that because that’s exactly what he was doing before he was captured by a fluke if memory serves, carving through soldiers like they were training dummies, it’s been forever but it feels like people forget the dude started out described as a prodigy wizard with a sword

I can’t remember how they describe he was captured in the show, but I think he kills a few of Robb’s personal guard (three or four) before being captured. It can be assumed they were well equipped. If they were all attacking him personally at once, that’s by any real world standards extraordinarily impressive, probably impossible.

But firstly, it happened off screen, and secondly, it’s the kind of stuff that Beatrice and Achilles and Aragorn and Zorro and Inigo do on screen.

[Coin Biter]

Honestly, if we’re talking live action GoT characters, then I might be more tempted by Brienne or Sandor or even Jon Snow, simply because they do more - in part because the show budget increased (Although I’m not sure Nikolai Coster-Waldau, who gives a very fine performance, is a particularly convincing stage swordsman - and let’s face it the fight choreography is hugely variable.)

Snow has a better sword than two handed Jaime, and Brienne and Sandor are stronger than most of the characters here, have a few scenes of killing multiple opponents, and also wear good armour.

[Sol_M]

I remember the books better, but Westeros tends to have a much realistic portrayal of what a single man can do with a sword.

Except for stuff like Syrio Forel casually beating the crap out of half a dozen armed soldiers with a stick.

[Coin Biter]

Except for stuff like Syrio Forel casually beating the crap out of half a dozen armed soldiers with a stick.

And then gets probably killed off-screen by a knight wearing full plate (Yeah, I know there’s a theory he survives.)

I agree with you that the books aren’t realistic in the sense that they correspond to real world standards - apart from the directly supernatural elements, Gregor is for example stronger and tougher than any actual human being could be, and Jaime and some other fighters are better than any actual fighter would be.

But there are a couple of caveats. Firstly, it is mostly a low fantasy setting. So beating six average armed combatants with a wooden fencing swords by a master duellist is allowed, but one man taking on 30 or so combatants wouldn’t be. There is no Hurin single-handedly holding his own for a while against armies scenes. Those are the domain of heroic fantasy, to which Aragorn (for example) belongs.

Secondly, GRRM is clearly interested in certain aspects of medieval history/warfare etc and applying those to a fantasy realm. Part of the magic of the series is that these elements can be surprising given many fantasy tropes, which were commonly used in fantasy novels (less so now, in part because of GRRM’s influence). For example, swords do not cleave armoured men in two - plate armour is actually extremely useful and will block almost all slashing blows with a blade. Or, strategically, there’s actually a reason for Tywin to savage the countryside, outside of pure sadism, and it is an effective military tactic. Or that it’s quite possible to win a string of battles and yet lose a war.

Only up to a point, though, which is why you have characters like Jaime or for that matter Syrio Forel. They’re not heroic fantasy characters though.

You could see mythic characters in the books like Symeon Star Eyes as commentaries on that - a legendary warrior who is blind. The kind of stories that children like Bran enjoy - counterposed with the reality of the difficulties Jaime encounters after he loses his right hand.

[BitVyper]

And then gets probably killed off-screen by a knight wearing full plate

Doesn't negate the guy's feat.

Notably, if plate armour is being portrayed realistically, it's not just that it will turn slashing attacks, but that it should make one functionally invincible outside of a couple specialized weapons like war picks (and even then, it HEAVILY mitigates their effectiveness). IIRC, the vast majority of deaths in plate armour where we have any way of verifying what happened have huge asterisks beside them like "was shot in the face while his visor was open." In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the main one.

Oh, another point for Conner is that his immortality (and possibly his training with Ramirez) comes with a boatload of stamina. He can run fast enough to keep up with a galloping horse and maintain that speed at least across a long beach. This many opponents is a marathon fight, so stamina means being able to fight better longer. Aside from cutting down the metal billboard, and the Kurgan's strength feats, there's also Ramirez cutting through a tree without his sword being visibly slowed.

[Coin Biter]

Doesn't negate the guy's feat.

I’m not saying it does; my point (which is also yours) is that the books flirt with realism in areas such as the use of armour. They inhabit a separate sort of universe to the Lord of the Rings movies, where armour ain’t that much cop unless it’s mithril. Or I guess you could interpret it as Aragorn etc simply being that strong/their swords being that amazing.

[The Chou Lives]

Said tree fell on Connor and he was fine.

Hell the one thing the High Lander Sword did not cut through was a stone colum in parking building which left a superficial chip of metal.

[The Chou Lives]

I’m not saying it does; my point (which is also yours) is that the books flirt with realism in areas such as the use of armour. They inhabit a separate sort of universe to the Lord of the Rings movies, where armour ain’t that much cop unless it’s mithril. Or I guess you could interpret it as Aragorn etc simply being that strong/their swords being that amazing.

Aragorn is super human. Due to his hertiage.