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  1. #61
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Yep. It just doesn't compute at all.
    But then again, when was the last time DC worried about the continuity making sense?

  2. #62
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    When we're dealing with a fictional character that needs to be marketed a certain way and have a sense of drama in his life, I think his lifestyle is kind of important to an extent. Superman already has an uphill climb with dealing with the stigma of being too powerful, too perfect, and being outdated. Making him a popular football star in high school and having both of his parents around is a bit much, IMO. Especially as his pre-Crisis life wasn't exceedingly difficult, it just had more ups and downs. He had to deal with knowing he was adopted and feeling like an outcast, but he still had Pete, Lana, Krypto and the Legion. His father died and he was unable to prevent it, but it happened as he was becoming an adult and he had a happy life with his father up until that point with a solid emotional foundation to guide him in life.
    I've never needed Superman to be a popular football star but I never quite felt that having his parents around made things easier for him. It gave him a sounding board and a place in Smallville but generally I felt Superman still had to figure things out on his own.
    With Bane's elaborate troll job somehow involving both time travel (Skeets) and alternate dimensions (Thomas Wayne Batman), King himself may even be the one to resolve this weirdness with Holly.
    Wouldn't that be nice ?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I think at this point Nora's murder is set in concrete.
    At the very least I think future writers might just de-emphasize it and the impact of Flashpoint because of all the drama and implications those have saddled the Flash book with.

    Although I think the argument can be made that the death of Nora still is still far from an "essential" part of the Flash mythos by this point.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    It may take 20 years, but eventually the daughter of Zeus and brother Jason stuff will be gone from Wonder Woman. DC didn't realize how much it flies in the face of what she's created to be. I can picture Johns and a few guys sitting around a boardroom table spitballing on how to change her for the New 52 and having no idea what they were doing.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    It may take 20 years, but eventually the daughter of Zeus and brother Jason stuff will be gone from Wonder Woman. DC didn't realize how much it flies in the face of what she's created to be. I can picture Johns and a few guys sitting around a boardroom table spitballing on how to change her for the New 52 and having no idea what they were doing.
    Didn't they just hand her over to Brian Azzarello and say "do whatever"?

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Only the original Golden Age backstory had the Kents die of natural causes. The more in-depth take in the Silver Age, the ones in the Superboy book where they got their biggest characterization and focus ever, had a demise for them that was very much not from old age and indeed had a tragic element to it. At one point in the series they ingest a serum at one point to make them physically younger. Age was no longer a big issue after that as they were in the middle-age realm from then on. Later when they did pass, they died from a disease they got on a Carribean island. The idea that their death never had any tragic connotations to it for Superman to deal with before the New 52 is not true.

    But I digress, my vote also goes to more recent Wonder Woman developments. Just because DC has a history of retconning her lore with nearly every newly incoming creative team. So its the safe bet.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-10-2018 at 05:32 PM.
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  6. #66
    Resident of Central City RedWhiteAndBlueSupes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At the very least I think future writers might just de-emphasize it and the impact of Flashpoint because of all the drama and implications those have saddled the Flash book with.
    I agree totally, at the very least it will be de-emphasized, and it Williamson's run ends like I think it will with an epic battle through time and space or something of that nature with the restoration of the Flash mythos( where already pretty much there but not completely). But not only retoring the mythos, but really continuing that "Journey of Barry Allen to find his place within the multiverse" story he is going for. Williamson is kinda in a tough spot though because, Flashpoint is really unpopular and invokes strong reactions from people, so you don't wanna rewrite flashpoint 2.0. I think the few remaining problems from Flashpoint will be solved in a much more....subtle way. We might just get stuck with a generic "it all happened" status.
    Although I think the argument can be made that the death of Nora still is still far from an "essential" part of the Flash mythos by this point.
    Totally, its far from a essential part of the flash mythos. I always just viewed it as a part of the continuing saga of the Flash vs Reverse. Not some quintessential part of Flash history or anything. It's been awhile, but In Flash Rebirth, Barry says something feels "off" since he came back, as if he seems to be feeling the change in time caused by reverse rather than screaming out "oh man my mom died 30 years ago and I just now realized it!" Then reverse actually gloats something to the effect of "You've already lived a happy life with your parents and I've taken that life from you" in all his epic evilness lol. And too I mean... that original life had to have happened or else Reverse wouldn't even exist. So its like a fluctuating timeline?

    But yeah I really do think Nora Allen will be retroactively restored to life probably sooner than later, and it won't even be a big deal. Just so long as Williamson(or whoever) puts the main focus elsewhere to as not to scare fans with evoking images of flashpoint. I don't think synergy with Tv is holding that back either anymore.
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  7. #67
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At the very least I think future writers might just de-emphasize it and the impact of Flashpoint because of all the drama and implications those have saddled the Flash book with.

    Although I think the argument can be made that the death of Nora still is still far from an "essential" part of the Flash mythos by this point.
    Before the TV show, I would agree, but now? I would say the odds of it being retconned at this point is on the slim side.
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  8. #68
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've never needed Superman to be a popular football star but I never quite felt that having his parents around made things easier for him. It gave him a sounding board and a place in Smallville but generally I felt Superman still had to figure things out on his own.
    I mean, NOT having a parent die is automatically easier than having them die and going through the grieving process. It's more of a bitter sweet life experience than a major tragedy, and I think it provides a relateable rough patch/life lesson for him to over come without going into the needless grim-dark direction.

    If all they are doing is hanging around being sounding boards there is not much point in going through the effort of bringing them back IMO, because at this stage in his life he generally has Lois for that, or Kara, or Lana and Pete if he needs to go back to Smallville. Or his close JL friends like Bruce and Diana. Or even Jimmy and Perry, who totally know he's Superman even if nobody comments on it.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    I hope they retcon all the retcons.

    Sure, there may be elements of the comics that I don’t like, but I don’t think more retcons is the solution to the problem. Quite the opposite.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Didn't they just hand her over to Brian Azzarello and say "do whatever"?
    Reportedly they had something even more egregious planned that Azzarello talked Didio out of over the planning dinner where he pitched his "first crime family" idea for Wonder Woman. We still don't know what DC's idea was, but if Azzarello of all people was the voice of reason it must have truly been a nightmare.

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Before the TV show, I would agree, but now? I would say the odds of it being retconned at this point is on the slim side.
    Agreed. Of course - Flashpoint is a crossover. It'll be retconned for sure.

    But Nora Allen being killed by Zoom as time travel revenge against Barry Allen, altering his past? It's so fitting to the mythos, the history between the two characters, and the Flash concept. You always look to build conflict and history between the protagonist and antagonist.

    Removing that would be similar to dropping Sinestro as Hal Jordan's mentor-gone-too-far.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Superman gets another origin...again! (it's going to happen sooner or later)
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  13. #73
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Before the TV show, I would agree, but now? I would say the odds of it being retconned at this point is on the slim side.
    Considering the TV show is, frankly, probably the only time that origin was utilized very effectively I don't think the argument that it should be kept is as strong as it could be (at least in my opinion).
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I mean, NOT having a parent die is automatically easier than having them die and going through the grieving process. It's more of a bitter sweet life experience than a major tragedy, and I think it provides a relateable rough patch/life lesson for him to over come without going into the needless grim-dark direction.
    Well, I don't think having parents who are alive makes things easier for him as Superman since the kind of challenges and troubles he face would be the same either way.
    If all they are doing is hanging around being sounding boards there is not much point in going through the effort of bringing them back IMO, because at this stage in his life he generally has Lois for that, or Kara, or Lana and Pete if he needs to go back to Smallville. Or his close JL friends like Bruce and Diana. Or even Jimmy and Perry, who totally know he's Superman even if nobody comments on it.
    I think he already has multiple sounding boards but each brings a different perspective that the others don't, just as the Kents would as his parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Agreed. Of course - Flashpoint is a crossover. It'll be retconned for sure.

    But Nora Allen being killed by Zoom as time travel revenge against Barry Allen, altering his past? It's so fitting to the mythos, the history between the two characters, and the Flash concept. You always look to build conflict and history between the protagonist and antagonist.

    Removing that would be similar to dropping Sinestro as Hal Jordan's mentor-gone-too-far.
    The way it adds to Barry and Thawne's rivalry is pretty much the only good thing to come out of Nora's death in my opinion, and I think that can still be doable without murdering Nora.

  14. #74
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    If all they are doing is hanging around being sounding boards there is not much point in going through the effort of bringing them back IMO, because at this stage in his life he generally has Lois for that, or Kara, or Lana and Pete if he needs to go back to Smallville. Or his close JL friends like Bruce and Diana. Or even Jimmy and Perry, who totally know he's Superman even if nobody comments on it.
    I think he already has multiple sounding boards but each brings a different perspective that the others don't, just as the Kents would as his parents.
    There's one big difference between the Kents and all the others mentioned: which ones grew up on a farm in Kansas and raised Clark from when he was a child?
    When and where they come from gives them a much different perspective, and returning home to that farm and spending time there with his living parents is such a totally different (and perhaps even humbling?) experience that really gives him connection with his roots.

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, I don't think having parents who are alive makes things easier for him as Superman since the kind of challenges and troubles he face would be the same either way.
    Even excluding the superhero exploits, navigating through your general adult life without your parents is generally less easy. Not insurmountable though, because he made it to early adulthood with them in his life and had their lessons as a foundation to make it through the rest of it on his own.

    Again, it adds a sense of bitter sweetness that lends a bit more credence to his stance that you can overcome obstacles and be hopeful. The death of a parent/loved one is sad, but also part of life and nobody, not even Superman, can prevent it. It's an important life lesson to instill in a character who struggles off and on with the perception of being considered too powerful and not having enough relateable challenges in his life. Bringing them back undoes that bit of character development for him with little to no gain in exchange. At least with Jonathan, you can probably get away with splitting the difference and leaving Martha alive.

    Jonathan Kent's role in Return of Superman could have worked just as well, if not better, if they were dealing with the pre-Crisis history.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 11-11-2018 at 01:22 PM.

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