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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    If you're trying to guilt me into backing down, it's working. Accepted. I was just throwing a mirror up, though. I can see you seem like decent folk.
    Hah, no, not going for that at all! I hear what you were saying and I'll keep it in mind. If you end up checking out the Tolkien stuff, let us know. It applies really well to this sub-conversation on continuity and making sense in a nonsense world. It's pretty well known so you've probably already read it and if so I'd love to hear what you think.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    As a side note to this discussion, it brings to my mind what it seems Morrison did in Batman and that he's stated he's doing here - to take everything he read when he was young but rather than re-create it and cement it as "reality" the way a child would, (i.e. "This is the reality that was presented to me then and I just want those stories to mature with me.") Morrison seems to be taking those stories and reveling in the childishness of how it actually was (or how it seems to an adult) in a way that a child would not want, because children want to experience things that make them feel older, or more mature which was the impact those exact stories had on a twelve-year old mind. It's an interesting way to tackle funny-books in that endlessly loopy self-referential and self-conscious way. I feel like I'm talking in circles, so I will stop.
    Nah, I get exactly what you mean. It's kind of like when I was a kid and discovered Carlos Casteneda or the German philosophers or whatever and all the sudden I was convinced I was so gahdamn MATURE and ABOVE it all. Now I feel embarrassed for my past self, but those feelings of becoming instantly older and more mature were very real at the time. It is kind of a loop, something makes you feel mature, then makes you feel ridiculous for being so into them and believing that interests=maturity, then makes you feel mature again for experiencing and processing something that changed you. Morrison's themes of "but what if everything ever in Batman's history DID really count" did a fantastic job of mirroring those experiences imo.

  3. #48
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    Speaking of that eclipse, there's also something of an attitude that comics don't need to make sense. Because it's already an impossible scenario- the supposition that human beings can have super powers and do impossible things- that anything goes. I don't feel this is the case. If you're already being asked to suspend disbelief, it's more important than ever that every effort should be made to adhere to common sense within the impossible framework. Otherwise you end up with Superman hauling entire star systems around with a ginormous chain.
    It depends on the tone of the story a creator is telling. Superheroes can work in a variety of different heightened realities. The Teen Titans are a good example. Just look at how "real" they are trying to be in the live action Titans show, as opposed to Teen Titans: Judas Contract movie, which is itself using a far more realistic set of ground rules than the old Teen Titans cartoon, while those rules have been tossed out the window by Teen Titans Go that will do almost anything in service of a joke.

    One problem long-running shared continuities have is that they include stories will a wildly diverse variety of tones and levels of reality. DC compensated for that with its Multiverse, but, even then, you'll still have that clash of tones and levels of reality that never quite match up.

    Hence, why I don't think a tighter continuity is particularly good for creativity. I love the shared storytelling aspect of the DCU, but the inconsistencies don't really bother me much because my continuity-obsessed nerd brain has been given so many explanations for why DC's history is a patchwork quilt of rubberbands that never made complete sense.
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 11-27-2018 at 06:31 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    As a side note to this discussion, it brings to my mind what it seems Morrison did in Batman and that he's stated he's doing here - to take everything he read when he was young but rather than re-create it and cement it as "reality" the way a child would, (i.e. "This is the reality that was presented to me then and I just want those stories to mature with me.") Morrison seems to be taking those stories and reveling in the childishness of how it actually was (or how it seems to an adult) in a way that a child would not want, because children want to experience things that make them feel older, or more mature which was the impact those exact stories had on a twelve-year old mind. It's an interesting way to tackle funny-books in that endlessly loopy self-referential and self-conscious way. I feel like I'm talking in circles, so I will stop.
    I like this kind of crazy talk!

    I think Morrison's approach to continuity is the best for me. He doesn't get caught up in the details unless it makes for a good story. He enjoys looking at these characters in their entirety and trying to make sense of their contradictions because that makes them more real to him.

  5. #50
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    It depends on the tone of the story a creator is telling. Superheroes can work in a variety of different heightened realities. The Teen Titans are a good example. Just look at how "real" they are trying to be in the live action Titans show, as opposed to Teen Titans: Judas Contract movie, which is itself using a far more realistic set of ground rules than the old Teen Titans cartoon, while those rules have been tossed out the window by Teen Titans Go that will do almost anything in service of a joke.

    One problem long-running shared continuities have is that they include stories will a wildly diverse variety of tones and levels of reality. DC compensated for that with its Multiverse, but, even then, you'll still have that clash of tones and levels of reality that never quite match up.

    Hence, why I don't think a tighter continuity is particularly good for creativity. I love the shared storytelling aspect of the DCU, but the inconsistencies don't really bother me much because my continuity-obsessed nerd brain has been given so many explanations for why DC's history is a patchwork quilt of rubberbands that never made complete sense.
    When you talk cartoons, clearly you are going outside the normal framework of comics. But yeah, things like Ambush Bug, Harley, or Bugs Bunny obviously don't operate by the normal rules. Or anything written by De Matteis since- well for decades now. But such things essentially break the fourth wall by operating outside normal causality deliberately. Often actually breaking the fourth wall in the process.

    I don't think a lot of people really expected, or even wanted, comics to mature with them. I know I, myself, only wanted enough depth of meaning to stay entertained. The maturation of subject matter is just what happened. When you have people like Moore or Miller breaking new ground, something like that is bound to happen.

    I have a friend who messages things he thinks are funny, and way too many of them are adult, and remind of things I might have found in Penthouse Comics. Some of it is funny, but I kind of wish he'd get his head above the gutter at least long enough to catch his breath. I can honestly say that nothing is as juvenile as "adult" humor.

    Not terribly interested in comics getting very mature, because mature doesn't equal better, and I kind of see it as belonging to a different genre altogether anyway. I don't know that anyone is actually interested in that, but hey, I'm an introvert, so how would I even know if they were? I'm usually the only one in the room (like physically in a real room) into comics, and almost always know more about comics- even when the room is a comic shop. Consequence of a wasted youth.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 11-27-2018 at 08:03 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    When you talk cartoons, clearly you are going outside the normal framework of comics. But yeah, things like Ambush Bug, Harley, or Bugs Bunny obviously don't operate by the normal rules. Or anything written by De Matteis since- well for decades now. But such things essentially break the fourth wall by operating outside normal causality deliberately. Often actually breaking the fourth wall in the process.
    I was talking about the superhero genre, which now transcends comics, but I think its beating heart is still driven by the comics (for now anyways). In many ways, the tropes and convoluted continuities of multiverses and retcons are just now being adopted by TV and movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    I don't think a lot of people really expected, or even wanted, comics to mature with them. I know I, myself, only wanted enough depth of meaning to stay entertained. The maturation of subject matter is just what happened. When you have people like Moore or Miller breaking new ground, something like that is bound to happen.

    I have a friend who messages things he thinks are funny, and way too many of them are adult, and remind of things I might have found in Penthouse Comics. Some of it is funny, but I kind of wish he'd get his head above the gutter at least long enough to catch his breath. I can honestly say that nothing is as juvenile as "adult" humor.

    Not terribly interested in comics getting very mature, because mature doesn't equal better, and I kind of see it as belonging to a different genre altogether anyway. I don't know that anyone is actually interested in that, but hey, I'm an introvert, so how would I even know if they were? I'm usually the only one in the room (like physically in a real room) into comics, and almost always know more about comics- even when the room is a comic shop. Consequence of a wasted youth.
    I think there's value in having many different kinds of comics for a wide variety of different audiences, no matter the genre. With DC Ink and Zoom, Lee & Didio are trying to tap into the kids and teen market, whereas the Black Label stuff is aiming for the audience that Moore & Miller tapped into back in the 80s. There's room for all kinds of stories from all kinds of people. I don't think DC should limit itself to any one kind of reader or tone or reality. The beauty of the DCU is that it is one of infinite possibilities that is made up of the collective storytelling of hundreds of very different creators spanning almost a century. That is unprecedented in creative writing and I love watching it grow and evolve and try new and different things, some of which may fail, but some of those failures may bear fruit years later.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    And then there's G'nort - a joke character whose existence fit within the more lighthearted JLI series, but when taken into consideration within the normal context of the GLC made no sense. Writers had to then shoehorn in a more "realistic" reason for him to have a ring. (which never worked for me)

  8. #53
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I was talking about the superhero genre, which now transcends comics, but I think its beating heart is still driven by the comics (for now anyways). In many ways, the tropes and convoluted continuities of multiverses and retcons are just now being adopted by TV and movies.



    I think there's value in having many different kinds of comics for a wide variety of different audiences, no matter the genre. With DC Ink and Zoom, Lee & Didio are trying to tap into the kids and teen market, whereas the Black Label stuff is aiming for the audience that Moore & Miller tapped into back in the 80s. There's room for all kinds of stories from all kinds of people. I don't think DC should limit itself to any one kind of reader or tone or reality. The beauty of the DCU is that it is one of infinite possibilities that is made up of the collective storytelling of hundreds of very different creators spanning almost a century. That is unprecedented in creative writing and I love watching it grow and evolve and try new and different things, some of which may fail, but some of those failures may bear fruit years later.
    Absolutely. I'm just saying a push for mature content simply for the sake of mature content isn't something readers clamor for, and won't lead to inherently better material. Mature doesn't mean intelligent or entertaining, and often is quite the opposite. I think such labels are best kept out of policy as a rule, and left up to the writers. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Killing Joke, and Black Mercy stories are among the best comics tales ever told. Not because they were more mature (although they most definitely were), but because Moore is a great talent with stories to tell.

    Although I understand what you mean, it's not actually true that other mediums are adopting the continuities of comics. I'm guessing this was a typo, and you meant to say adapted. Some aspects have been adapted, but television and film are now notorious for reinventing canon, and (especially lately) actively avoiding straight up telling stories in any way close to how they went down in the original comics. The result is a distorted view of comic book continuity. But I guess that's always been the case, and live action has never closely resembled the source material, even when said material truly happened. The change of POV that comes with changing the medium kind of makes for transformative translation. Although Lord of the Rings did remarkably well as far as that goes. I was genuinely surprised to find I already knew much of the dialogue, despite the fact that I never read Tolkein, and hadn't thought I'd seen Bakshi's version that many times. But then movies made a bigger impact on me when I was that young.

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