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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Griever will come back since Dan has like 50 issues left. The mechanics of how she works and her defeat were really clever since I basically agreed with her questioning how Reed adding more bodies was going to stop a God killer.

    Great handling of all the guests and the Future Foundation. I would have thought such a large cast in 20 pages wouldn't work, but it did. Love the Hulk beat.

    That bit with Peter and Ben essentially invokes what Dan said on Word Balloon years ago when he went on a tangent about how Ben was the guy who would always get up when knocked down. It was like a nice continuity callback to something outside of a book.

    We really need to stop stressing the Val/Frank age thing. Trying to calculate a sliding timescale with numbers is just going to lead to headaches. The Val problem starts with Mark and John just writing her as like a 10 year old genius in an apparently 3 year old body. I'm just gonna accept that she's like 12.

    Props to Marte Gracia for making Nico and Sara's art go together so well. I genuinely didn't notice a change. Nico's kind of a shapeshifter artist too, so props to him as well.

    Overall, great issue and one of the best recent comic fights. Everyone's firing on all cylinders. Can't get enough of this book.
    In the headcanon of my mind, Val is 12 and Franklin is closer to 16. It's really something to see Franklin FINALLY growing up a bit.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Not a mistake. Slott is the master of the long game. He's also no one who's going to stumble on continuity.

    If they say there's an untold tale of Iceman joining the team, you can believe that tale is already in the works and will be told at some point in Slott's run.



    I agree with all of this. Loved this issue. The focus was where it should be. All the characterizations were on point and, by the end of the issue, there is no doubt that the FF is back.

    Sue's rescue of Franklin was the only slightly dodgy element of the book but it's easy enough to roll with. Probably what I liked the most this issue was Slott's handling of Reed and Reed's absolute confidence - as well as the family's absolute confidence in Reed. The fact that the Griever was set up as such an all-powerful, muah-ha-ha type villain was part of what made this issue work as seeing how Reed wasn't distracted or intimated in the least by her bluster or her power and was able to simply out think her and out play her was so satisfying.

    Thumbs up too for the awesome Hulk cameo. Perfectly done.
    I'm still trying to figure out what exactly happened there.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what exactly happened there.
    Looks to me like she simply turned invisible, ran in and scooped him up. Or ran in, scooped him up, and then turned them both invisible.

    It's not 100% clear and either way, it seems like a very simple solution to getting Franklin out of the Griever's clutches, but it's not a real obstacle to enjoying the issue. Just a slightly clumsy moment.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Looks to me like she simply turned invisible, ran in and scooped him up. Or ran in, scooped him up, and then turned them both invisible.

    It's not 100% clear and either way, it seems like a very simple solution to getting Franklin out of the Griever's clutches, but it's not a real obstacle to enjoying the issue. Just a slightly clumsy moment.
    It looked more like Griever wasn't aware of Sue's invisibility powers and freaked out when Franklin disappeared. It's a rather cliche trope, but that explanation makes the most sense to me.

  5. #50
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Looks to me like she simply turned invisible, ran in and scooped him up. Or ran in, scooped him up, and then turned them both invisible.

    It's not 100% clear and either way, it seems like a very simple solution to getting Franklin out of the Griever's clutches, but it's not a real obstacle to enjoying the issue. Just a slightly clumsy moment.
    I went with Sue turning Franklin invisible and then grabbing him while the Griever loosened her grip due to surprise. But unless there was something special about how the Griever was holding Franklin, the exact details aren't important to the fact that Sue broke him loose. And we can believe it was possible so no harm done.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    It looked more like Griever wasn't aware of Sue's invisibility powers and freaked out when Franklin disappeared. It's a rather cliche trope, but that explanation makes the most sense to me.
    I can roll with that explanation.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    It looked more like Griever wasn't aware of Sue's invisibility powers and freaked out when Franklin disappeared. It's a rather cliche trope, but that explanation makes the most sense to me.
    Works for me!

  8. #53
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    To be fair, Sue uses forcefields so often that it is sometimes easy to forget that her basic power is simple invisibility.

  9. #54
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    In the headcanon of my mind, Val is 12 and Franklin is closer to 16. It's really something to see Franklin FINALLY growing up a bit.
    Except it annoyed the hell out of me that Slott has him saying "Unca Ben". He's not a 4 year old and he shouldn't be speaking like one.

    I thought this issue was average and it really tried too hard with the family angle. I'm hoping that at a certain point Slott doesn't write like he has to remind the reader on every other page that they are a family. I really thought it was a stretch to consider Wolverine and Ghost Rider as part it. Slott still has to earn his spurs IMO.

    I hope the situation with the artists gets settled in the next few months. IMO Nico's pages looked better than Sara's, who didn't seem to catch fire with this title. Maybe when rocky beginning is over and things will start to gel in the next few issues.

  10. #55
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Except it annoyed the hell out of Slott has him saying "Unca Ben". He's not a 4 year old and he shouldn't be speaking like one.
    My son used to say "Umple Wick". It still is a family joke at get togethers. Because Franklin actually started with and then went to the correctly pronounced "Uncle Ben" a few panels later, I could believe he was kidding around and intentionally using the childhood pronunciation. Can I have my no-prize, please?

    However, I will accept nothing other than "the Ben" from the Moloids.

  11. #56
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    It was a nice issue although I cringed a little with the Iceman's scene. And I would have like to know more about Namorita's pressence (did she came back to life? Or is the one from the past that appeared during the last series of Richard Rider?)

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Except it annoyed the hell out of Slott has him saying "Unca Ben". He's not a 4 year old and he shouldn't be speaking like one.

    I thought this issue was average and it really tried to hard with the family angle. I'm hoping that at a certain point Slott doesn't write like he has to remind the reader on every other page that they are a family. I really thought it was a stretch to consider Wolverine and Ghost Rider as part it. Slott still has to earn his spurs IMO.

    I hope the situation with the artists gets settled in the next few months. IMO Nico's pages looked better than Sara's, who didn't seem to catch fire with this title. Maybe when rocky beginning is over and things will start to gel in the next few issues.
    I like Slott as a writer, I do, but his dialogue can be hit or miss. I remember during that Spiderman issue where he wrote modern Loki like he was still being written by Walk Simonson. I like Simonson just fine, but that isn't exactly how Loki talks anymore.

  13. #58
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    Structurally, the contest between the super heroes and Griever was sound, because it could only last a short time, before the twist would defeat her. But I have two issues.
    One, with Franklin trusting his family. Back in FF Unthinkable TPB, Franky was assured the family wouldn’t leave him in hell - they left him traumatised in hell. They didn’t protect him from Grievers first fight - referenced, but not shown. Franky was assured family would protect him in second fight with Griever - Griever has him by the throat in second fight. I think Franky should be very reluctant to believe family anymore.
    Two, what was the point of creating all those alternate universes, if the Griever destroyed them all in an instant? Hickman must have had some plan for the FF catalogueing them for 5 years, yet, Dan Slott dumps that storyline in his first arc. Curious what Marvel thought they were doing with the FF out of the picture. For what?

    Now, suddenly, after Griever made 5 years of work redundant, the FF decide “well, let’s just go back home to Earth”. They can’t make anymore alternate universes because Franky ran out of juice, and the Molecule Man is dead. I guess Reeds suggestion that the FF stay away from Earth (because that would be good), is now all defunct as well. It just feels a little rushed and plot deficient.

    Not that it isn’t nice the FF are back, because it is nice. It’s just that I thought there would be a more dramatic entrance than, “generic bad guy scared us back to a Earth, and, we had no excuse why we stayed away”.
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-16-2018 at 06:14 AM.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Structurally, the contest between the super heroes and Griever was sound, because it could only last a short time, before the twist would defeat her. But I have two issues.
    One, with Franklin trusting his family. Back in FF Unthinkable TPB, Franky was assured the family wouldn’t leave him in hell - they left him traumatised in hell. They didn’t protect him from Grievers first fight - referenced, but not shown. Franky was assured family would protect him in second fight with Griever - Griever has him by the throat in second fight. I think Franky should be very reluctant to believe family anymore.
    Two, what was the point of creating all those alternate universes, if the Griever destroyed them all in an instant? Hickman must have had some plan for the FF catalogueing them for 5 years, yet, Dan Slott dumps that storyline in his first arc. Curious what Marvel thought they were doing with the FF out of the picture. For what?

    Now, suddenly, after Griever made 5 years of work redundant, the FF decide “well, let’s just go back home to Earth”. They can’t make anymore alternate universes because Franky ran out of juice, and the Molecule Man is dead. I guess Reeds suggestion that the FF stay away from Earth (because that would be good), is now all defunct as well. It just feels a little rushed and plot deficient.

    Not that it isn’t nice the FF are back, because it is nice. It’s just that I thought there would be a more dramatic entrance than, “generic bad guy scared us back to a Earth, and, we had no excuse why we stayed away”.
    They didn't leave him in hell, they came as fast as they could to rescue him. It was also them being a family and sticking together that helped him with his trauma.Plus this happened years ago in real life and the Marvel timeline. Of course he has faith in his family.
    In the first battle against the Griever wasn't the family that failed Franklin, it was him failing them (at least in his view). He ran off to face her alone because of his power and when she knocked him down she went on to beat the others. He didn't work with them to face her like he did with Ben in the recent issue. I'm not seeing the problem here as all of it makes sense both in the present story and history of the character.

    Griever did not destroy all the universes created, only some of the most recent ones. There are countless others that were saved, remember last issue that was the reason why Val crashed on this universe? Even if she didn't Reed's plan was to make a stand on one of the earlier created ones that was more stable/anchored to multiversal tapestry. There would still have been many universes left and not a waste of 5 years.

    Reed's reason for not going back to earth was silly in the first place. It's only there because you can't say the real reason the FF were gone. which is that Marvel didn't want to use properties they didn't fully own. It has both Reed and particularly Sue act out of character to make it work. Why on earth would Sue abandon Johnny and Ben, her family, for Doom of all people? The man who tortured her son and continually tries to kill her husband out of pettiness. She'd never do that in a million years and I'm waiting for Marvel 2-in-One #12 to see the explanation because so far it goes against everything that the character is.
    Last edited by Crimz; 11-16-2018 at 06:59 AM.
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  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    They didn't leave him in hell, they came as fast as they could to rescue him. It was also them being a family and sticking together that helped him with his trauma.Plus this happened years ago in real life and the Marvel timeline. Of course he has faith in his family.
    In the first battle against the Griever wasn't the family that failed Franklin, it was him failing them (at least in his view). He ran off to face her alone because of his power and when she knocked him down she went on to beat the others. He didn't work with them to face her like he did with Ben in the recent issue. I'm not seeing the problem here as all of it makes sense both in the present story and history of the character.

    Griever did not destroy all the universes created, only some of the most recent ones. There are countless others that were saved, remember last issue that was the reason why Val crashed on this universe? Even if she didn't Reed's plan was to make a stand on one of the earlier created ones that was more stable/anchored to multiversal tapestry. There would still have been many universes left and not a waste of 5 years.

    Reed's reason for not going back to earth was silly in the first place. It's only there because you can't say the real reason the FF were gone. which is that Marvel didn't want to use properties they didn't fully own. It has both Reed and particularly Sue act out of character to make it work. Why on earth would Sue abandon Johnny and Ben, her family, for Doom of all people? The man who tortured her son and continually tries to kill her husband out of pettiness. She'd never do that in a million years and I'm waiting for Marvel 2-in-One #12 to see the explanation because so far it goes against everything that the character is.
    Are you talking about the Sue who joined with Doom on Battleworld in Secret Wars by Hickman? I don’t think she had even met a Reed Richards before. But you’re right. Sue wouldn’t have abandoned Johnny and Ben normally, but that Doom Sue was manipulated by Doom, so I give her a break.

    As for the 5 years wasted on alternate universe creation, you could be right there were only a few destroyed. I just got it in my head Griever destroyed the lot of those made.

    Franklin though? He should really refuse to be in the family. That kid is constantly put in danger. I don’t care if Franklin was shown to attack Griever by himself, it’s the family that allowed him to act independently like that, and he gets defeated. He’s only a kid, and he was traumatised by that Griever fight. Then they tell him to jump right in again? Very poor parenting.

    And what kind of cosmic entity is Griever? If she was like Living Tribunal, she could vaporise all of them. She must me a very novice cosmic, or really over-rates herself to be duped like a novice.

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