Kryptonians vs. Heralds

[The Dork Knight]

He also survived brief exposure to a cosmic mutation storm that otherwise transmuted an entire planets population

[Pendaran]

The '70s Hulk was barely a class 100, just like most Marvel bricks till the modern age. Like going by feats and all, he was probably modern Ben Grimn levels at best and definitely well below post crisis Kryptonians. He nearly collapsed (with help) under the weight of a mountain in the '80s

The nexus thing makes it unusable probably but Hulk is still gamma energy Banner or no Banner. Draining that completely should have left nothing, regardless of whether Banner the insignificant human existed or not.

The thing is, "the nexus thing makes it unusable probably" honestly makes the entire rest of the sentence be without much worth. Draining him completely would have meant the Surfer could drain entire realities. I am pretty cool with that the Surfer cannot drain entire realities.


With that said, I'm not honestly the biggest fan of "characters are more powerful now" as a general concept. While that's true for some characters, for any number of other characters, it's really more that characters had various nonsense, it's just said nonsense is often more obscure. The Hulk of that era could have a mutual collision with Namor and cause tidal waves along the coastline of an entire continent as noted distant collateral. He could stop an earthquake by pulling the fissure of it closed. This is without getting into the various asterisked garbage I find to be outliers or unquantifiable so I'll simply say the Hulk was portrayed as a big ol powerful guy of stuff just fine. Comparing him to the Thing is taking it wayyyyy too far.

But anyway, Surfer has had a pretty long career, when else has he come close to draining actual class 100s of their energy source, much less ones with multiple feats of resisting energy drains?

During one of the Surfer and Firelord's fights, the Surfer took Firelord out by absorbing a bunch of Firelord's own power, then hitting him with it to overload him with it after Firelord further charged himself up with ambient space energy. To the point of being depicted as zapping Firelord with firebolts that overloaded him, i.e. he was directly using Firelord's own powers that he acquired via drain given that he more usually y'know, doesn't shoot cosmic fire from his hands. Firelord's not even doing anything to him, the Surfer just starts drawing his own fire off him.

https://imgur.com/a/e899sy7

and I doubt its going to work on a sundipped Kryptonian anyway

Don't see why it wouldn't, it's a depowering effect to counter an empowering effect. He's just not going to really get to try.

[The Dork Knight]

Okay, "the nexus thing makes it unusable probably" honestly makes the entire rest of the sentence be without much worth. Draining him completely would have meant the Surfer could drain entire realities. I am pretty cool with that the Surfer cannot drain entire realities.


With that said, I'm not honestly the biggest fan of "characters are more powerful now" as a general concept. While that's true for some characters, for any number of other characters, it's really more that characters had various nonsense, it's just said nonsense is often more obscure. The Hulk of that era could have a mutual collision with Namor and cause tidal waves along the coastline of an entire continent as noted distant collateral. He could stop an earthquake by pulling the fissure of it closed. This is without getting into the various asterisked garbage I find to be outliers or unquantifiable so I'll simply say the Hulk was portrayed as a big ol powerful guy of stuff just fine. Comparing him to the Thing is taking it wayyyyy too far.

Maybe but then we might as well say Thor can still effortlessly overpower the Surfer's energy field (with Surfer acknowledging Thor's power was greater than his, even with Loki backing him) or that Ben Grimn can get into extended fist fights with modern surfer because it happened in the '60s when he used to be written as weaker

The Hulk has become well stronger than he used to be, like orders of magnitude stronger if you want to use actual feats and compare them and stuff. So just as a basic thing, modern Hulk has way more gamma radiation to drain today than he used to, and Surfer hasn't showed stuff on that scale

It's like arguing a guy who moved a moon can move a planet, because he is moving celestial bodies. Yeah but it's a question of scale innit

During one of the Surfer and Firelord's fights, the Surfer took Firelord out by absorbing a bunch of Firelord's own power, then hitting him with it to overload him with it after Firelord further charged himself up with ambient space energy. To the point of being depicted as zapping Firelord with firebolts that overloaded him, i.e. he was directly using Firelord's own powers that he acquired via drain given that he more usually y'know, doesn't shoot cosmic fire from his hands. Firelord's not even doing anything to him, the Surfer just starts drawing his own fire off him.

And that's just my point! He could NOT drain all of Firelords power. Firelord was still Firelord, he didn't turn back into a Xandarian. He got overwhelmed specifically because he was already drawing on energy from the stars or something and wasn't prepared for even more energy.

It would be the same thing if he turned back to Pyreus Krill. He didn't. Ergo surfer can't fully drain someone in that class even when he is trying to

Don't see why it wouldn't, it's a depowering effect to counter an empowering effect. He's just not going to really get to try.

The amount of energy should be too high. Sundipped Kryptonians, the few times it's happened were OPd af. The war world thing especially was the guy essentially shoving around the big bang

[The Arbiter]

You two are the cutest old married couple I've ever seen ;P

You both are standing there in your nightgowns yelling at eachother "I agree with you!!" but nitpicking the details as to why, whilst contemplating who gets to sleep on the couch lol.

Pretty sure my wife and I had a fight like this two weeks ago :P

[Pendaran]

Maybe but then we might as well say Thor can still effortlessly overpower the Surfer's energy field (with Surfer acknowledging Thor's power was greater than his, even with Loki backing him) or that Ben Grimn can get into extended fist fights with modern surfer because it happened in the '60s when he used to be written as weaker

Again, some characters have certainly had improved depictions over time. My point is that others have all the same had histories of doing impressive stuff. My other point is that comparing the Hulk to the Thing, who is certainly not doing anything like the Banner controlled Hulk's Secret Wars mountain bit even with whatever you could call the modern Thing, is completely off base.

And that's just my point! He could NOT drain all of Firelords power. Firelord was still Firelord, he didn't turn back into a Xandarian. He got overwhelmed specifically because he was already drawing on energy from the stars or something and wasn't prepared for even more energy.

He wasn't trying to, I noted it for Surfer draining a guy to the point of using his own powers against him, you seemed to be suggesting Surfer couldn't energy drain the class 100 crowd much at all.

It would be the same thing if he turned back to Pyreus Krill. He didn't. Ergo surfer can't fully drain someone in that class even when he is trying to

But he specifically wasn't trying to, that wasn't even his plan. Making that conclusion from that showing doesn't work. He didn't try to do something and fail to do it.

And it doesn't really change that if Surfer did do an energy drain on a kryptonian, sundipped or otherwise, there would be a much more immediate dip in capacity considering they rely on that sort of thing to make them go.

The amount of energy should be too high. Sundipped Kryptonians, the few times it's happened were OPd af. The war world thing especially was the guy essentially shoving around the big bang

I don't honestly view "shoving around the big bang" as valid even for a sundipped kryptonian. By that standard I should be talking about the Hulk punching time or reflecting dimensional shockwaves or whatever damn thing as far as the conversation on whether the Hulk is orders of magnitude more powerful now.

[The Arbiter]

Specifically the Firelord thing: I'm pretty ok with draining the guy not removing his herald body. It's not just power, becoming a herald, it's more of a fundamental transformation decreed by the big guy himself. If you drained him to zero, I'm pretty sure Firelord would still look like Firelord. Just imo

[The Dork Knight]

Again, some characters have certainly had improved depictions over time. My point is that others have all the same had histories of doing impressive stuff. My other point is that comparing the Hulk to the Thing, who is certainly not doing anything like the Banner controlled Hulk's Secret Wars mountain bit even with whatever you could call the modern Thing, is completely off base.

OK here's a more valid comparison. Surfers own capacity till like the '90s is something like "blow up from becoming a moon busting bomb having absorbed too much energy". That's close to where I'd peg the modern Hulk so just from Surfer's portrayal prior to recent times, he couldn't have absorbed so much energy

He wasn't trying to, I noted it for Surfer draining a guy to the point of using his own powers against him, you seemed to be suggesting Surfer couldn't energy drain the class 100 crowd much at all.

Oh no. I agreed with you in my earlier post. He definitely could drain them somewhat. There's a big difference between that and "reduce to Bruce 'regular Joe' Banner with one go" is what Im getting at

But he specifically wasn't trying to, that wasn't even his plan. Making that conclusion from that showing doesn't work. He didn't try to do something and fail to do it.

He tried draining his energy, he failed to drain it completely, with his attempt. It was surely better to end the fight by turning him to Pyreus nobody, instead of relying on a guess that he could be overwhelmed. What in saying is it isn't like "Surfer waves his hands and class 100s get depowered" instantly as some sort of casual thing

And it doesn't really change that if Surfer did do an energy drain on a kryptonian, sundipped or otherwise, there would be a much more immediate dip in capacity considering they rely on that sort of thing to make them go.

Yep. Agreed

I don't honestly view "shoving around the big bang" as valid even for a sundipped kryptonian. By that standard I should be talking about the Hulk punching time or reflecting dimensional shockwaves or whatever damn thing as far as the conversation on whether the Hulk is orders of magnitude more powerful now.

Hulk's been around for ages though whereas sun dipped Kryptonians must have appearances in the single digits. That and stuff like "enough power to overwhelm the Worlogog" and whatever was going on in DC One Million seem to indicate massive power boosts

[Pendaran]

Hulk's been around for ages though whereas sun dipped Kryptonians must have appearances in the single digits. That and stuff like "enough power to overwhelm the Worlogog" and whatever was going on in DC One Million seem to indicate massive power boosts

DC One Millon wasn't just a sundip though, that was a Superman that lived in the sun/bonded with it or something such that he was now apparently made of gold or what the hell nonsense ever. Which would lean to my thing. That Superman had a fundamental shift in his entire existence. Whereas from what we otherwise have of Superman getting closer to the sun, or sundips, or the like, it's not like Superman in those had a similar experience.

OK here's a more valid comparison. Surfers own capacity till like the '90s is something like "blow up from becoming a moon busting bomb having absorbed too much energy". That's close to where I'd peg the modern Hulk so just from Surfer's portrayal prior to recent times, he couldn't have absorbed so much energy

And yet in 1982, only a tiny piece of the Surfer's energy channeled through Shalla Bal restored all of Zenn La, an entire planet, from a barren wasteland. So I don't know that I'd call that other thing representative necessarily for the energy capacity of what the Surfer can contain.

By which I mean, if a small portion of his energies can restore an entire planet, moon busting bomb energy equivalent should not really trouble him like that to absorb. That wouldn't be much on the scale of his internal energies.

He tried draining his energy, he failed to drain it completely, with his attempt. It was surely better to end the fight by turning him to Pyreus nobody, instead of relying on a guess that he could be overwhelmed. What in saying is it isn't like "Surfer waves his hands and class 100s get depowered" instantly as some sort of casual thing

That's not really what happened is what I'm saying, especially when he's all "ha ha! this was totally my plan!" He never at any point even tried to do a total energy drain on Firelord. You can't really say it's an example of him failing at total energy drain of someone when he never went for it in that sequence. The most he otherwise talked about was that he could keep absorbing and deflecting the fire Firelord was burning him with in a big ball of fire, but that the fire was starting to hurt him to stand inside of so he had to jet.

How can I put this.. the Surfer is not smart enough to lie about what his plans are ;p

[Captain Morgan]

I'd like to note that while I think kryptonite should hurt sun dipped Superman just fine,* post crisis Supes had a really extensive history of holding out under red sun abuse for long periods.

*Setting aside the whole wrong universe thing, at least.

[moonknight11]

I'd like to note that while I think kryptonite should hurt sun dipped Superman just fine,* post crisis Supes had a really extensive history of holding out under red sun abuse for long periods.

*Setting aside the whole wrong universe thing, at least.

Dude crashing into Mogo right after going through red sun Rao at FTL (alongside SBP and Kal L) and being ok is the one that comes to mind.

[Pendaran]

Dude crashing into Mogo right after going through red sun Rao at FTL (alongside SBP and Kal L) and being ok is the one that comes to mind.

Weeeellll… that actually did end up doing a pretty solid number on his powers (that and the kryptonite). And the speed means the contact wasn't ultimately all that prolonged besides.

[greatmetropolitan]

Doesn't nu52 Superman also have a feat of surviving Kryptonite being literally in his brain, while a tesseract is trying to open in his brain or something? From the Morrison Action Comics run, Legion of Superheroes were involved, I'm sure. Post Crisis/nu52 Superman has a decent history of holding out against Kryptonite.

As for the red sun, kryptonite power loss thing from IC, I'm not sure it was ever definitively stated that it took his powers away. Yes, he didn't have his powers after that event, but the following Superman story showed there was, at least to some degree, a psychological component to his power loss, with him eventually getting psychologically "nudged" into allowing his full powers to come back.

[The Dork Knight]

DC One Millon wasn't just a sundip though, that was a Superman that lived in the sun/bonded with it or something such that he was now apparently made of gold or what the hell nonsense ever. Which would lean to my thing. That Superman had a fundamental shift in his entire existence. Whereas from what we otherwise have of Superman getting closer to the sun, or sundips, or the like, it's not like Superman in those had a similar experience.

But getting close to the sun is not the same thing as actually glowing gold or whatever as in Our Worlds at War, otherwise he wouldn't have to enter the sun in the first place for that power boost.

The few times that he has actually entered the sun seemed to have resulted in huge power upsurges, sometimes accompanied by actually glowing gold for a while like Supes 1 million

And yet in 1982, only a tiny piece of the Surfer's energy channeled through Shalla Bal restored all of Zenn La, an entire planet, from a barren wasteland. So I don't know that I'd call that other thing representative necessarily for the energy capacity of what the Surfer can contain.

By which I mean, if a small portion of his energies can restore an entire planet, moon busting bomb energy equivalent should not really trouble him like that to absorb. That wouldn't be much on the scale of his internal energies.

I feel like pointing out that's not consistent with surfers levels at the time, or even that restoring all the flora on a planet is not the same thing as moon busting but I just love that story so much I hate to take anything away from it

Don't get me wrong like Surfers solo title after that was excellent and infinity and annihilation and all were cool and stuff but that story feels like the last of a bygone era- a pining lost Surfer, trapped on earth still, mephisto trying to break him but his love for Shalla Baal as pure as when he was Norrin but he has to let her go every time.... just classic stuff

[The Dork Knight]

Doesn't nu52 Superman also have a feat of surviving Kryptonite being literally in his brain, while a tesseract is trying to open in his brain or something? From the Morrison Action Comics run, Legion of Superheroes were involved, I'm sure. Post Crisis/nu52 Superman has a decent history of holding out against Kryptonite.

As for the red sun, kryptonite power loss thing from IC, I'm not sure it was ever definitively stated that it took his powers away. Yes, he didn't have his powers after that event, but the following Superman story showed there was, at least to some degree, a psychological component to his power loss, with him eventually getting psychologically "nudged" into allowing his full powers to come back.

He also survived with a sliver of Kryptonite embedded in his brain for a while in Trinity War, although it was causing his powers to go out of whack

Post crisis Kryptonians have plenty of Kryptonite resistance feats- the iron in the blood to Kyrptonite thing has already been mentioned for instance - but it's not that they can't be taken down with Kryptonite... eventually. It's more that such a thing would require time and focus which I don't really see happening in a straight up fight as it would require multi tasking and/ or surrendering various other advantages to do that while an opponent is wailing on your face

[Captain Morgan]

Weeeellll… that actually did end up doing a pretty solid number on his powers (that and the kryptonite). And the speed means the contact wasn't ultimately all that prolonged besides.

I honestly wasn't even thinking of that one. Stuff that sprang to mind was tanking repeated red sun hits from a star eater, taking a prolonged exposure to it just before crossing the city to intercept a bullet, charging up planet moving engines with heat vision despite being under a red sun, having multi hour fights under a red sun....

Dude seems to have rather a lot of stuff like that. Which isn't to say it isn't an effective strategy against him, but he doesn't fold like PC Supes did and against a weaker opponent he can generally beat them before he succumbs.

Surfer also should be able to drain Superman I reckon, but with a sun dip that's a pretty deep well and I wouldn't think he could do it instantly.

So given opportunity I think Surfer can win, but it sounds like with speed equalized sun dipped Supes may be too much to allow such an opportunity.