X-Men in the MCU Hopes & Dreams

[Cyke]

The film that does the most damage to DOFP's ending is Logan, which makes the X-Men's accomplishments in that film seem moot really quickly.

Well, yes and no and maybe. The New Mutants (for what they were) managed to escape and in the narrative of Logan, there's the strong chance that they'll continue the social justice fight in the near future.

But it also mimics or better concretizes an idea already in the comics -- what are mutants to do when the mutant population is drastically reduced from millions to just 198. There's a **** ton of despair when you consider what that really means, but Logan really took in that feeling of isolation that comes from such an event.

(and, let's face it, the comics handled things very, very conveniently for such a catastrophic event. If Scarlet Witch removed the powers of almost all mutants at random, wayyyy more of the X-Men should've been affected by it. But no, most of the A-listers got through it unscathed, and fan favorite B- and C- listers eventually got their powers back one way or another years before the spell was undone).

[Marvelgirl]

Then it's not the trope you were talking about. It's all just BS.

Sounds like the X-Men universe than BS. If you read the comics.

[SpiderClops]

Well, yes and no and maybe. The New Mutants (for what they were) managed to escape and in the narrative of Logan, there's the strong chance that they'll continue the social justice fight in the near future.

I think we're talking in meta sense here, not in-universe themes. Logan does damages the ending of DoFP if we see it in a meta sense. It's almost undeniable.

But it also mimics or better concretizes an idea already in the comics -- what are mutants to do when the mutant population is drastically reduced from millions to just 198. There's a **** ton of despair when you consider what that really means, but Logan really took in that feeling of isolation that comes from such an event.

It did it by using X-Men as canon fodders. Actually, even that isn't accurate. They're less than footnote worthy. It's a Wolverine story and that's why it gets away with it(especially in the movie verse, which has focused way too much on Wolverine and has yet to make an X-Men movie that is actually about X-Men).

(and, let's face it, the comics handled things very, very conveniently for such a catastrophic event. If Scarlet Witch removed the powers of almost all mutants at random, wayyyy more of the X-Men should've been affected by it. But no, most of the A-listers got through it unscathed, and fan favorite B- and C- listers eventually got their powers back one way or another years before the spell was undone).

You can't expect them to depower half the X-Men for a decade. That's just not how it works.

[Marvelgirl]

Well, yes and no and maybe. The New Mutants (for what they were) managed to escape and in the narrative of Logan, there's the strong chance that they'll continue the social justice fight in the near future.


(and, let's face it, the comics handled things very, very conveniently for such a catastrophic event. If Scarlet Witch removed the powers of almost all mutants at random, wayyyy more of the X-Men should've been affected by it. But no, most of the A-listers got through it unscathed, and fan favorite B- and C- listers eventually got their powers back one way or another years before the spell was undone).

New Mutants was not supposed to have any connection to the other films. Was there a chance NM will still experience the same social justice. probably. mutation is like racism. you can never get rid of racism as long as their are people. the new mutants were destined to experience the same treatment from a medical and psychological point , not the political as seen in First Class or X2.

But it also mimics or better concretizes an idea already in the comics -- what are mutants to do when the mutant population is drastically reduced from millions to just 198. There's a **** ton of despair when you consider what that really means, but Logan really took in that feeling of isolation that comes from such an event.

Finally someone brings up the comics and applies it correctly. I brought up the same thing. Mutants do have to feel isolation. I doubt XMen in the MCU will give us that. the main sell of MCU is to make sure all the characters are friendly and get along. Let's not all be shocked if the mutant prejudice theme is solved and gotten rid off in the first film. there will be no distinction between mutants and other heroes. It is waaayyyyyyyy too messy for the MCU to deal it. MCU usually goes for something easier with a broader appeal though with little depth.

[David Walton]

From a comics eye view, it is not surprising. Age of Apocalypse undid DOFP and House of M. One of the core themes of X-Men stories is survival-ship. I remember from the cartoons the first time DOFP happened, the accomplishment was supposedly undone by the legacy virus. X-Men is not a world of happy endings. tragic but true.

DOFP said the future is never set, Logan's world becoming what is was not surprising.

But Logan, unlike DOFP, doesn't provide any mechanism to be seen as a possible future. And that's by design, because his story wouldn't have as much impact if not for the finality. Problem is, what's good for a Wolverine story doesn't necessarily fit the X-Men as well.

X-Men futures are typically dystopian, but there's also an open-endedness about them, because you have to balance their plight with the hope for a better world (even if it seems unlikely). They see a terrible future, they fight with everything they've got, and alter just enough that it might be averted yet no one feels as though they're off the hook. They exist in a constant state of tension that's never fully resolved.

[Marvelgirl]

But Logan, unlike DOFP, doesn't provide any mechanism to be seen as a possible future. And that's by design, because his story wouldn't have as much impact if not for the finality. Problem is, what's good for a Wolverine story doesn't necessarily fit the X-Men as well.
.

It is a Wolverine movie. Mangold admitted fans could interpret it anyhow they want, the future after DOFP, years after The Wolverine, an alternate timeline, I have no quams with that. The man just wanted to make a true film and tell a real story, not flashes or spectacles. theshape put it best, it is not black and white. Logan reminds me of the killing joke. the unofficial but official Joker's origin story. It has to be part of the appeal (Logan and the killing joke),

X-Men futures are typically dystopian, but there's also an open-endedness about them, because you have to balance their plight with the hope for a better world (even if it seems unlikely). They see a terrible future, they fight with everything they've got, and alter just enough that it might be averted yet no one feels as though they're off the hook. They exist in a constant state of tension that's never fully resolved.[/

I couldn't have put it any better. Unfortunately this aspect of X-men is about to get blown up by the cinematic dealings. Would X-men ever fight their own battles or will they become some pet project as Spiderman has become to Iron Man and Avengers. if you see all the things coming out from far from home, you are not sure if you are reading about a Spiderman movie or an Ironman spin off.

Things are about to get worse with X-Men. the hard line is the world MCU has built for itself, X-Men has no real place in it, not with what they represent. MCU is not about to bend backwards for X-Men. X-Men should have a separate universe. Should and if the first MCU X-Men film turn out bad , Marvel will reconsider their plans. The first X-Men MCU movie will be the 13th X-men movie after many standout that MCU has yet to reach with their generic approach to CBMS. it is not as if people are ignorant about X-Men as they are with other marvel characters.

[Jokerz79]

From a comics eye view, it is not surprising. Age of Apocalypse undid DOFP and House of M. One of the core themes of X-Men stories is survival-ship. I remember from the cartoons the first time DOFP happened, the accomplishment was supposedly undone by the legacy virus. X-Men is not a world of happy endings. tragic but true.



DOFP said the future is never set, Logan's world becoming what is was not surprising. I fear this aspect of x-men will be diminished in the MCU. MCU is so connected. The characters are too joined by the hip so are their stories. X-men had many wonderful stories of dystopian and little mutant population. Don't think MCU will be too interested in that. Their goal is to connect everything not tell actual stories of comics. Spider-Man in the MCU, his world is bleeding fast into IronMan's world. Happy is about to start dating Aunt May. when did Spiderman need that?

Jarvis dated Aunt May well Skrull Jarvis it might had been and this was before Disney or the MCU.

The MCU had Shield turn out be half full of Hydra and decimated the Asgardians and half of the Avengers were still fugitives going into Infinity War due to the Sokovia Accords a precursor to eventual Mutant Registration if they want it to be. I know the MCU is bright and has laughs but its also has sadness and dark moments in it its called being 3 dimensional. Its why Deadpool is successful you have a character who life keeps beating down and he laughs it off which a lot of people do to get through tough times. I don't get these fears of the X-Men being in the MCU there is nothing Fox has shown in films outside of nudity and dick jokes that the MCU hasn't also shown including genocides. All the MCU means to me for X-Men is me finally getting to see what Fox gave just with more joy, heart, and a bit of the Fantastic.

[DragonflyJones]

@Marvelgirl

May I ask you...why do you continually watch these movies if your obviously not a fan of them. It's just very strange that you seem to dislike much of what the MCU does, yet you always watch their movies when they come out. I'm not a fan of the fox-men so I don't go to see their movies...it's that simple. You don't have to force yourself to watch what your not interested in

[Killerbee911]

As X-men comic book fan I get highly annoyed at people when they overpraise Fox X-men movies did they make some good movies? Yes but tone is not only thing a fan should care about. X-men movie should try it's hard to carry the spirit of the storyline even though you are adapting the material make sense live action. In the nearly 20 years at Fox never at any point (not even easter egg) put any of Classic X-men teams together show up on the screen NOT The 05 X-men, Uncanny All new different X-men, X-men cartoon squad, or Blue and Gold. Fox jack up continuity horribly and they had to soft reboot twice and used people like Jubilee, Havok, Angel, Psylocke, Darwin way wrong. Fox didn't care about classic friendship(wolverine and Nightcrawler), family connections(Mystique,Rogue and Nightcrawler) of the X-men or general feel of unity(X-men baseball games and dinners). Tone,Maturity and Seriousness. Where was the X-men? Not just Wolverine,Magneto, Xavier, Mystique over and over.They are good reason beyond Tone that people want movies in Marvel hand.

Secondly Fox hasn't shown any consistency in overall quality movie making.Are all MCU movies the greatest? No but 17 out of 18 movies are at least average with Thor Dark World being the one stinker.You can count on Marvel to put out a competent movie that isn't going to kill the franchise. Fox X-men franchise has no trilogy of movies around the same level quality each film

X1,X2(Good) and X3(Bad)
Wolverine Origins(Bad) The Wolverine(Decent) Logan(Amazing)
First Class(good) Doftp(Great) Apocalypse(Bad)

Bad movies kill franchises,We should have Green Lantern, Superman, Batman and Flash movies but since they release one bad movie and DC becomes hesitant to put 150 to 200 million for a movie to fail again. What are the odds that Dark Phoenix or New Mutants will suck badly? Deadpool has been the one consistent series do you have faith that Fox wouldn't have found a way to jack up it? Marvel focuses on comedy and action too much? Maybe but Thor Dark World easily the worst Marvel movie had 173 million dollar budget and made 644 million dollars. If you make the experience fun for the customer in the theater,You can slip mediocre movie out there and make a profit and Venom proves this isn't just a MCU phenoma.

Lastly Fox has just as much if not more Studio meddling as MCU

-It is documented that Ryan Reynolds(and Kevin Fegie) complained about the stupid Deadpool sewn mouth thing,Wanted to back out of the film but they threaten to take away role from him for the actual Deadpool movie so he stayed on.
-They made the director of Wolverine put in the stupid CGI silver samurai when he didn't want to
-New Mutants they agree to make a horror movie, Then they change the idea on director ,no we want you make a young adult film,He goes along with this,The early reviews came back bad but horror beats worked, So went back reshoot with more horror elements.
- Add bunch of stupid stuff Wolverine origins to make a big summer blockbuster,The director had more serious tone in mind for the film

Much of Fox success in tone is by sheer luck. They want to make big fun blockbuster movies like the MCU but they have sucked(X-3, Wolverine Origins). So they were forced to soft reboot and go in a different direction and actually made two good movies.So you think they would stick with that serious tone formula nope.They made X-men Apocalypse after they made DoFTP and Logan. Logan is a fluke because they push both Wolverine to PG 13 because studio wisdom that is how you make the most money.And would have probably done the same without Deadpool being released and being a big success. Because DP was so successful it allowed the Logan team to make a movie without executive bs that messed with the first two. I already mention they nearly push Reynolds away and everyone knows DP story it was sitting in development hell, Someone leak the Rated R test footage and Fox decided to finally put it into play when fans loved it.Without the footage Deadpool might not have been released and even if it was release it doesn't get the R rating. Fox isn't some bastion of hope they never had clue how to use X-men. They have always seen X-franchise as bunch of toys they could cherry pick the best toys and they could just put them anywhere and fans would eat up. Fox never cared for the franchise like MCU does for their characters. DP 2 is great movie but DP2 killed Shatterstar and Black Tom Cassidy for laughs both characters carry some relevance going forward and they can't be used. Fox got the serious tone right. Okay fine but they killed Cyclops and Xavier for no reason in X-3. And that in nutshell has been the fox movie experience.

I am ready for MCU maybe they can make good movie starring Cyclops, Jean Grey, Storm, Jubilee, Wolverine, Rogue ,Gambit and Jubilee . Maybe they will play baseball in some down time, Maybe Magneto will have his Acolytes like Exodus,Amelia Vought and Fabian Cortez.

[choptop]

@Marvelgirl

May I ask you...why do you continually watch these movies if your obviously not a fan of them. It's just very strange that you seem to dislike much of what the MCU does, yet you always watch their movies when they come out. I'm not a fan of the fox-men so I don't go to see their movies...it's that simple. You don't have to force yourself to watch what your not interested in

It's not really strange she's a comic fan it's a comic movie it's that simple pules some of us injoy watching bad movies just to how bad they are.

[Marvelgirl]

As X-men comic book fan I get highly annoyed at people when they overpraise Fox X-men movies did they make some good movies? Yes but tone is not only thing a fan should care about. X-men movie should try it's hard to carry the spirit of the storyline even though you are adapting the material make sense live action. In the nearly 20 years at Fox never at any point (not even easter egg) put any of Classic X-men teams together show up on the screen NOT The 05 X-men, Uncanny All new different X-men, X-men cartoon squad, or Blue and Gold. Fox jack up continuity horribly and they had to soft reboot twice and used people like Jubilee, Havok, Angel, Psylocke, Darwin way wrong. Fox didn't care about classic friendship(wolverine and Nightcrawler), family connections(Mystique,Rogue and Nightcrawler) of the X-men or general feel of unity(X-men baseball games and dinners). Tone,Maturity and Seriousness. Where was the X-men? Not just Wolverine,Magneto, Xavier, Mystique over and over.They are good reason beyond Tone that people want movies in Marvel hand.

Secondly Fox hasn't shown any consistency in overall quality movie making.Are all MCU movies the greatest? No but 17 out of 18 movies are at least average with Thor Dark World being the one stinker.You can count on Marvel to put out a competent movie that isn't going to kill the franchise. Fox X-men franchise has no trilogy of movies around the same level quality each film

X1,X2(Good) and X3(Bad)
Wolverine Origins(Bad) The Wolverine(Decent) Logan(Amazing)
First Class(good) Doftp(Great) Apocalypse(Bad)

Bad movies kill franchises,We should have Green Lantern, Superman, Batman and Flash movies but since they release one bad movie and DC becomes hesitant to put 150 to 200 million for a movie to fail again. What are the odds that Dark Phoenix or New Mutants will suck badly? Deadpool has been the one consistent series do you have faith that Fox wouldn't have found a way to jack up it? Marvel focuses on comedy and action too much? Maybe but Thor Dark World easily the worst Marvel movie had 173 million dollar budget and made 644 million dollars. If you make the experience fun for the customer in the theater,You can slip mediocre movie out there and make a profit and Venom proves this isn't just a MCU phenoma.

Lastly Fox has just as much if not more Studio meddling as MCU

-It is documented that Ryan Reynolds(and Kevin Fegie) complained about the stupid Deadpool sewn mouth thing,Wanted to back out of the film but they threaten to take away role from him for the actual Deadpool movie so he stayed on.
-They made the director of Wolverine put in the stupid CGI silver samurai when he didn't want to
-New Mutants they agree to make a horror movie, Then they change the idea on director ,no we want you make a young adult film,He goes along with this,The early reviews came back bad but horror beats worked, So went back reshoot with more horror elements.
- Add bunch of stupid stuff Wolverine origins to make a big summer blockbuster,The director had more serious tone in mind for the film

Much of Fox success in tone is by sheer luck. They want to make big fun blockbuster movies like the MCU but they have sucked(X-3, Wolverine Origins). So they were forced to soft reboot and go in a different direction and actually made two good movies.So you think they would stick with that serious tone formula nope.They made X-men Apocalypse after they made DoFTP and Logan. Logan is a fluke because they push both Wolverine to PG 13 because studio wisdom that is how you make the most money.And would have probably done the same without Deadpool being released and being a big success. Because DP was so successful it allowed the Logan team to make a movie without executive bs that messed with the first two. I already mention they nearly push Reynolds away and everyone knows DP story it was sitting in development hell, Someone leak the Rated R test footage and Fox decided to finally put it into play when fans loved it.Without the footage Deadpool might not have been released and even if it was release it doesn't get the R rating. Fox isn't some bastion of hope they never had clue how to use X-men. They have always seen X-franchise as bunch of toys they could cherry pick the best toys and they could just put them anywhere and fans would eat up. Fox never cared for the franchise like MCU does for their characters. DP 2 is great movie but DP2 killed Shatterstar and Black Tom Cassidy for laughs both characters carry some relevance going forward and they can't be used. Fox got the serious tone right. Okay fine but they killed Cyclops and Xavier for no reason in X-3. And that in nutshell has been the fox movie experience.

I am ready for MCU maybe they can make good movie starring Cyclops, Jean Grey, Storm, Jubilee, Wolverine, Rogue ,Gambit and Jubilee . Maybe they will play baseball in some down time, Maybe Magneto will have his Acolytes like Exodus,Amelia Vought and Fabian Cortez.

Fox was not meddling as much. more than half of the MCU movies have studio meddling.People don't overpraise X-Men movies for nothing. X-Men movies are more than generic spoofed out overblown commercial entertainment. the movies are usually as good as the very best films released in the same year. did every xmen movie carry the spirit of the storyline? 7.5 out of 11 films did. MCU movies have no spirit or can I say soul. they are too grossly commercial with no real meaning to them, too Disney downsided. MCU movies that would be stinkers to the people who overpraise MCU movies.

Hulk
Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor 2
Age Of Ultron
GOTG 2
Thor Ragnarok

MCU movies that will leave people feeling confused if I change the title to X-Men: Infinity War

GOTG
Ant Man 2
Ant Man
Dr Strange
The first Avenger
Black Panther
Avengers
Thor 1
Infinity War.

Only 2 MCU movies have any consistency that deserved almost the same praise as X-Men. a large part of the captain America movies. If you feel annoyed xmen is overpraised, it is more about CBMs (MCU in particular) have become too dense for words. since X-Men has a true depth , cares story telling, practical effects, keeping studios away. people praise them for what they are.

The argument of overpraise stared my thoughts to Aquaman. The praise for the film is goofy, fun speculates. almost the same very praise of MCU movies. DC is now copying MCU. X-Men with the kind of praise it gets does not need to be in MCU. The praise of X-men is only consisitent with TDK trilogy, the Spider-Man movies or any CBM not in a cinematic universe. Logan by half of the much older fandom is not called a better film than TDK just for some marvel fans like me to gloat little. the praise of Logan speaks for itself. compared to MCU movies, it deserved to be overpraised.

[Arsenal]

People have every right to be confused about a movie called X-Men: Marvel’s The Avengers where there’s not 1 X-Person in sight

[Marvelgirl]

People have every right to be confused about a movie called X-Men: Marvel’s The Avengers where there’s not 1 X-Person in sight

No such film exists for now. I am often confused when people think more than person in a movie who are only there to add to the Computer effects than their to show their skilful acting are non solo movies.

It's not really strange she's a comic fan it's a comic movie it's that simple pules some of us injoy watching bad movies just to how bad they are.

I am a marvel fan. I am an not MCU fan. MCU is the weakest branch of the Marvel universe. The best marvel films are the non cinematic movies.CBMs are just on a downward spiral, things have gotten too bloated.

[Cyke]

You can't expect them to depower half the X-Men for a decade. That's just not how it works.

But then it betrays the central premise (a heavily advertised premise, at that) that the X-Men would suffer great losses just by mathematics -- if 99% of the world's mutants are depowered, but the vast majority of those remaining just happen to belong to the same clique, that's not random nor chaotic anymore, despite being sold that way in advertising and in narrative. That's favoritism and editorial decree (even more damning, the X-Men collectively were supposed to tick off Wanda just as much as Magneto and Pietro did, hence why those two were specifically depowered. That's one of the big things Wanda railed against in House of M, and thus one of the big grudges in AvX. Most of the X-Men should've been in that camp by that nature). In all their years in trying to solve this crisis, the X-Men shouldn't have been asking, "How many random mutants were hit?" but instead should've asked, "Why were we spared?" Then at least there there's a surer foot to tell a story from.

Either commit to the idea or don't execute it at all. It's like promising to overhaul the oil industry to remove corruption, but suspiciously the biggest names are protected by special legislation thanks to lobbyists -- it's a false premise with no teeth. If eliminating the powers of the X-Men for half a decade is not how it works, then don't promote that or pretend it is the central premise as your story. Otherwise, it's a cheat.

If we're talking about meta sense here.

New Mutants was not supposed to have any connection to the other films.

I don't mean New Mutants in literal movie franchise sense. I never said they were the same New Mutants as the ones in the upcoming movie. I mean the narrative function that they served within the movie. Most prominently Richter is name-dropped to drive the point further but it's a ragtag group of young, vulnerable mutants banding together after the X-Men to survive as the next step in the fight for civil rights. The implication being that they'll be the next generation of X-Men thanks to the comic, Laura, and them teaming up against the villains at the end. That doesn't mean that band will get their own movie (of course not), but that's the role they served in Logan.

[Jokerz79]

What I'm looking forward to the main X-Films in the MCU and is lacking in the XCU is something Kevin Smith said about the Arrowverse when comparing to the DCEU he said the Arrowverse mantra is Heart, Humor, and Spectacle and the DCEU had Spectacle but no humor and little heart (This was before Wonder Woman this was when BvS came out).

He was right about the Arrowverse for all it's faults after watching the Elseworlds crossover I watched Earth-X again on Netflix and it was great and it had all three of those and same for the MCU.

Now outside of Deadpool which has all 3 most XCU films have little Spectacle, little humor, and little heart and I'm going to compare two love stories since Dark Phoenix is coming out everyone talks about the Power and Corruption part of Dark Phoenix but at it's core it's also a love story the love story of Scott and Jean is front and center in that story.

Vision and Scarlet Witch had maybe 30 minutes of airtime combined in Age of Ultron, Civil War, and Infinity War but it was still heartbreaking to watch her have to kill him. Why? Well Age of Ultron gave us their backstories and showed what they stood for and their character. Civil War showed in their first scene Vision comes to Wanda's room a lot so much he's been told to learn the human courtesy of knocking something he has yet to grasp. Also when told to keep her at the compound he tries to make it more nice for her by trying to make a favorite meal from her childhood Chicken Paprikash now this shows one he cares for her and he's gotten to know her well enough to know Chicken Paprikash was a childhood favorite of hers. He then also tries to quell her anxiety and fears of people fearing her again showing his care for her well being and last he gets distracted in battle when she is briefly hurt. With very little time and very few scenes they showed the depth of their budding relationship.

Now compare to Apocalypse Scott and Jean are shown as attracted to one another and she comforts him when his brother dies which honestly I think anyone with a heart would do the scenes of them bonding at the mall were cut from the film. A pointless wolverine cameo was given more prominence than a scene which could had added layers to Dark Phoenix. First Class is my favorite team X-Men film and why? Because of the party scene where the team is bonding at that moment they finally felt like the characters I read for decades in the comics not just a team but friends and a chosen family and that's what Deadpool also got right.

Cyclops is my favorite Marvel character with Peter Parker a close 2nd and when Scott died in Last Stand I felt nothing it was just a scene yet when Yondu a character I never cared about in the comics died I got misty eyed. That's what I want from the MCU with the X-Men I want them to make me care for the characters on screen as much as I do on the page.