What is the worst period of the Spider-Man comics?

[Daniel22]

They'd have better odds with a legacy.

Although, after a couple more decades, and DC pushing aside Wally and Kyle and some others . . . maybe that's a harder sell than it used to be. (I think people are fine with Miles being Spider-Man also, but would get upset if he were Spider-Man instead.)

Agreed on all fronts. I'm almost always on the side of having a new character exist alongside an old character, rather than outright replacement. Even in cases like Cho and Jane Foster, where I find the "replacement" character more interesting than the original, I'd still rather just have both. It's a win-win.

Back to the Clone Saga, even if they had just had it so that the Peter we had been reading about was the real Peter, but was replaced by Ben once Ben returned, that would have gone over so much better. There would have been backlash but not the hate and hurt that came from hearing "the Peter you know isn't the real Peter". That MIGHT have worked. But the combo of "your Peter is a clone" and "he's going away anyway" was too much.

[Alan2099]

Chapter One was not that bad, if viewed under the mindset of it being its own divergent continuity, like Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man - sure, I knew back then it attempted to retconically assimilate itself to 616's Volume Twos, such as saying the spider that bit Peter Parker was irradiated from the same science demonstration / meltdown that fused tentacles on Otto Octavius, and Electro's blue and white costume, but it was still neat to see more characters, this time Spider-Man, his friends, and his foes, done by John Byrne, formely reknown for X-Men, Fantastic Four, Alpha Flight, and She-Hulk, with here and there on Avengers.

Basically it was a retelling of the old stories, but every attempt they made to modernize things or make them more convenient fell flat on it's face. Also, the costume redesigns were horrible, the stories lacked any kind of flow to them and the whole things just felt incredibly bland.

So for me, it's a toss up between that and the "The man is dead. I AM THE SPIDER!" stories that started pre-clone saga and continued into the actual clone stuff.

[boots]

I wonder how much more nostalgia there is now than in the past? It seems like more but I can't say for sure.

i feel that there's more now, but i think it's partly due to tech and society enabling it. today's adults can easily access childhood comfort food via youtube, merchandise, reissues of toys, etc. previous generations might have had the nostalgia itch but no way of scratching it.

I do know that almost every cartoon/tv show that I watched as a kid in the eighties has been rebooted at least once. My twelve year old nephew has spent his whole life asking me "Have you heard of GI Joe/Transformers/TMNT/Full House/X Files/a hundred other things" whenever he discovers the new versions of them, which I always find funny. I'm also in that coveted and catered to "male 18-39" demographic so that's a big part I'm sure.

i know the buyer for a local fashion department store. they took a risk and ordered some reissued g1 walmart transformers...and they sold out in a day. amazed, they reordered a much larger shipment that is now just warming the shelf. they were left wondering why all the kids and parents suddenly stopped buying them.

their thought process was that they had tapped into the kid market (they're listed in the children's section), they didn't realise that 40 year adults got wind of it and grabbed multiple copies to keep mint in the box.

I think they are surely chasing something unattainable. I also think that they aren't remembering things particularly accurately.

you can never really go back. i've tried watching some movies i loved as a kid, and realised that they haven't changed...i have.

[boots]

Back to the Clone Saga, even if they had just had it so that the Peter we had been reading about was the real Peter, but was replaced by Ben once Ben returned, that would have gone over so much better. There would have been backlash but not the hate and hurt that came from hearing "the Peter you know isn't the real Peter". That MIGHT have worked. But the combo of "your Peter is a clone" and "he's going away anyway" was too much.

i guess i'm one of those weirdos that doesn't think being a clone devalues the character. i'd have been fine with stryfe being the "real deal" for instance.

i'm curious...has there been any data released on the sales of ben as spider-man? i know the online/snail mail backlash was strong, and i assume it reflected in sales but i don't know to what degree. and did that dip occur at the point of the peter/ben revelation or was it attrition over the long drawn out clone saga?

[Tuck]

i guess i'm one of those weirdos that doesn't think being a clone devalues the character. i'd have been fine with stryfe being the "real deal" for instance.

i'm curious...has there been any data released on the sales of ben as spider-man? i know the online/snail mail backlash was strong, and i assume it reflected in sales but i don't know to what degree. and did that dip occur at the point of the peter/ben revelation or was it attrition over the long drawn out clone saga?

It would have to be highly contextual. We're talking about the 90s. Boom to bust. Everything in that period is anomylous.

[boots]

It would have to be highly contextual. We're talking about the 90s. Boom to bust. Everything in that period is anomylous.

yeah, fair call...the answer is complex and so would be the solution. reinstalling peter wasn’t the simple answer (and i’m not just saying that as a ben fan)

[bob.schoonover]

i'm curious...has there been any data released on the sales of ben as spider-man? i know the online/snail mail backlash was strong, and i assume it reflected in sales but i don't know to what degree. and did that dip occur at the point of the peter/ben revelation or was it attrition over the long drawn out clone saga?

Sadly, Comichron data is mostly unavailable in that range. Basically, they only have data for the first 3-4 and last 3-4 months of the two year saga. I've always been kind of curious, too, if/when people started bailing. I perused The Life of Reilly a bit and didn't see any comments to the effect of "Because sales were flagging, we changed course*" - the Peter/Ben re-switch all seemed to come from the creative teams (granted, Life of Reilly is hardly definitive or written to be treated as a historical reference, and I was skimming).

*It was referenced that they were mimicking the Superman triangle era cross-title storytelling format to pull up Spec's sales

[boots]

Sadly, Comichron data is mostly unavailable in that range. Basically, they only have data for the first 3-4 and last 3-4 months of the two year saga. I've always been kind of curious, too, if/when people started bailing. I perused The Life of Reilly a bit and didn't see any comments to the effect of "Because sales were flagging, we changed course*" - the Peter/Ben re-switch all seemed to come from the creative teams (granted, Life of Reilly is hardly definitive or written to be treated as a historical reference, and I was skimming).

*It was referenced that they were mimicking the Superman triangle era cross-title storytelling format to pull up Spec's sales

yeah, from memory, life of reilly seemed to imply it was mostly editorial freak out (lots of flip flopping and finally cold feet). that and jurgens applying a bit of pressure too

[oldschool]

yeah, from memory, life of reilly seemed to imply it was mostly editorial freak out (lots of flip flopping and finally cold feet). that and jurgens applying a bit of pressure too

My recollection (having lived through that whole era) is that it was really a combination of both: sales did indeed drop (but that was the same era when the speculator bubble burst so it's hard to pin the decline on just editorial decisions) but the creative thrust just wasn't there beyond the first few issues. It's hardly definitive but I recall there being a very lukewarm reaction to Ben's solo Spidey stories in my local comics shops at the time; consensus was that Peter's supporting cast also was pretty underrated and the new cast they were rolling out----along with forgettable foes----wasn't doing the trick.

[boots]

My recollection (having lived through that whole era) is that it was really a combination of both: sales did indeed drop (but that was the same era when the speculator bubble burst so it's hard to pin the decline on just editorial decisions) but the creative thrust just wasn't there beyond the first few issues. It's hardly definitive but I recall there being a very lukewarm reaction to Ben's solo Spidey stories in my local comics shops at the time; consensus was that Peter's supporting cast also was pretty underrated and the new cast they were rolling out----along with forgettable foes----wasn't doing the trick.

all possible/probable , but i try to take it from official numbers rather than local comic shop consensus

[oldschool]

all possible/probable , but i try to take it from official numbers rather than local comic shop consensus

Same here. But the problem becomes unavailable data from that era combined with other cultural factors that influenced sales (the rise of video gaming and smart phones/tablets changing personal leisure time).

[boots]

Same here. But the problem becomes unavailable data from that era combined with other cultural factors that influenced sales (the rise of video gaming and smart phones/tablets changing personal leisure time).

yeah, i still think the conjecture has value

an industry wide analysis for the time might control some of the variables

[Daniel22]

i feel that there's more now, but i think it's partly due to tech and society enabling it. today's adults can easily access childhood comfort food via youtube, merchandise, reissues of toys, etc. previous generations might have had the nostalgia itch but no way of scratching it.




i know the buyer for a local fashion department store. they took a risk and ordered some reissued g1 walmart transformers...and they sold out in a day. amazed, they reordered a much larger shipment that is now just warming the shelf. they were left wondering why all the kids and parents suddenly stopped buying them.

their thought process was that they had tapped into the kid market (they're listed in the children's section), they didn't realise that 40 year adults got wind of it and grabbed multiple copies to keep mint in the box.



you can never really go back. i've tried watching some movies i loved as a kid, and realised that they haven't changed...i have.

Yeah good point on the ease of access... It's possible my parents would have been into re-watching their childhood favorites if they were as convenient to access in their entirety as they are now. I think it's highly likely, really.

Interesting about the Transformers... They also probably underestimated the urgency and fleeting nature of the speculator market. Hot today, not tomorrow has never been more true. I know we have to constantly adjust the prices on variants and hot books, usually by huge percentages. It's not uncommon for a book to go from cover price to $40+ and back down to near cover price over just two weeks. We will either sell a book for $75 today... or for $10 once it hits the bulk bin in two weeks. Fluctuation has always been a thing but it took place over a longer period of time and not to such extremes as often as it does now.

I can't even begin to untangle the sales from that era. There's just too many variables and unknowns and conflicting/complimentary factors. It would take a concerted effort to get some real data and even then it would be partial and have to include a lot of educated guesses.

I'm in the same boat with going home again. It's cool though, I'd probably feel... I don't know what exactly, but not good... if things impacted me the same way as an adult as they did when I was eight. Not that I don't still enjoy some cereal-and-cartoons action, but it's a sometimes thing now.

[Zeitgeist]

As much of a mess as the Clone Saga was, the era that came after was so dreadfully boring that I ended up dropping the book until Brand New Day. Still, I think I gave Clone Saga the nod.

[Spidey5640]

Sins Past and beyond!

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