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  1. #1
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Default Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

    So the Nightwing book is currently a bit out of sorts (to put it mildly). The appreciation thread has pretty much become us all complaining about the current comic (and rightly so). So, I thought it would be nice to have some fun instead.

    Has this already been done? Probably. Have we talked about it here and there in the appreciation thread? Sure. But I think it would be nice for us to flex our creative muscles.

    What would your pitch for Nightwing's book be? Have fun and be detailed. Include things like homebase/lair, general direction, tone, influences, supporting cast, and the like.

    (note: "Just do Grayson again" isn't a wrong answer, but its also not a fun answer. Be more specific.)

  2. #2
    Mighty Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I'm not certain enough to give a creative and definitive answer to this question (Just do Grayson again!) so I'll instead go with the shotgun approach with a wide variety of options:

    1.) Fix the Titans: End the current Nightwing and Titans series, relaunch with a stronger creative team and a larger emphasis on Nightwing. Much like "Red Hood and the Outlaws" or "Batman and the Outsiders" while it will be a team book where everyone gets moment to shine, Dick gets top billing as the team leader. No Beast Boy or Raven because I'm sick of them. The Titans franchise should be DC's X-Men, it needs to be big again. The problem with the current lineup is that they are boring and unprovocative. Having recently binged on Rucka's Checkmate run, I kinda think that I want the Titans be about halfway to the Winnick era Outsiders in terms of how they are regarded in the superhero community.

    They should reflect the discontent of a younger generation with the bureaucracy of the Justice League and international community, acting without regard to protocol or diplomatic relations. They aren't satisfied with the status quo and take more direct action and somewhat reckless.

    2.) Dick's identity crisis (no not that kind of Identity Crisis!): People don't have their lives figured out right away, sometimes they realize that they are along a path that's not for them and they have to backtrack a little. I'd dedicate a storyline to Dick realizing that everything about the Dixon-era status quo (and subsequent retreads) are simply not for him. Like a student switching majors or careers or cities, I'd have Dick realize that he simply cannot have a normal life. He will never be satisfied as a bartender or a taxi-cab driver. Bludhaven is a cage keeping him down. Dick should struggle with this realization. He should see this as quitting or giving up, something he should never do. But with the advice of his family and friends, he should realize that he should make the choice to leave Bludhaven behind. He is still helping people all around the world, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing to be ashamed of for realizing that something is not right for you.

    3.) Nuke Bludhaven (again!): If it hasn't been made clear yet, I really hate Bludhaven. Perhaps the most interesting thing done with it was nuking it, and yet this opportunity was squandered on Nightwing. Instead of making that a new status quo, they just moved him out of Bludhaven and into New York. That ignored all of the interesting things that could have been done and put him into the exact same situation that nuking Bludhaven got him out of. In Final Crisis, the final battle against humanity was fought out of the nuked out Bludhaven and not once was Nightwing's connection to it mentioned. That's ridiculous.

    And while nuking it again may sound repetitive or easily undone, what I am more interested in is exploring what should have been done the first time. Bring in the international superhero community to help during the initial aftermath with Dick in calling the shots. Make Dick's new direction salvaging the wastelands of a post-Apocalyptic Bludhaven trying to help the people who did not make it out. This could deal with mutated people crazed by radiation, people banding up in savage tribes for survival, and villain groups hoping to seek refuge in the ruins to scheme like Darkside did in Final Crisis.

    4.) Dick and Kory in Space: C'mon, we were all thinking it when Justice League Oddessy was anounced. The Titans in space. I'd be down for some cosmic adventures. However, DC also still owes us some Nightwing and Starfire adventures in space. Barbara has gotten the large majority of Dick's interest in the past few years and I'd like a change from that. Have them bump into the Omega Men in the Vega whatever.

    5.) Give him a sidekick. This seems like the final step for Dick to be an accomplished superhero. Superman's had em. Batman's had em. Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Arrow, and Aquaman have all had them. The final step for Dick to step on his own is his own sidekick. No Stephanie Brown or Tim Drake or even Damian. Dick need this step to get out on his own. Having the first sidekick in the DCU would be bring Dick's story full circle.

    6.) Put him in charge of Batman Inc.: I'll be honest, I have not idea what the current status of Batman Inc. is. But when Seeley talked about Dick being a one man international strike force of the Bat during his early Rebirth interviews, it brought the idea of Inc. to mind. With Bruce busy in Gotham, make Nightwing in charge of supporting the various Batmen and Batwomen around the world. Helping out where need be and doing missions under no Batman's jurisdiction.

    7.) Do Grayson again!: Yeah I know that the lazy one but its the one we all want. But since its so lazy I'll give it a pitch too. When Tiger first appeared, everyone on CBR was speculating that he was going to be end up being a villain. I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that some were speculating that this was King's attempt to make "Dick's Joker." So that impression stuck with me. And maybe with that in mind I've never view Tiger in a heroic light. They revealed his duplicity in the final issues of Grayson but seemingly gloss over it afterward, making him all buddy buddy with Dick again. I'm also still dead certain that Rise of the Raptor was written from the bones of a story that was originally made for Tiger. So with all of this wild speculation in mind, I'd have Tiger call Dick in for a favor only to realize that he is being manipulated.

    From what I recall about Tiger's background, he is from Kandahar, the former capital of the Taliban in Afghanistan, which was also previously occupied by the Soviets. So I would probably have Tiger deeply resentful of what he sees to be imperialist influence of his home. He would work covertly to destabilize the US-backed government in the region and manipulate Dick into working against the international community. I'd pit him up against order-keeping organizations like Checkmate, US backed affiliations like Argus and the Suicide Squad, and chaos agents like Leviathan and various mercenaries like Deathstroke. When he realizes he's been had, he fights against Spyral and takes down Tiger, winding up in charge of the organization.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  3. #3
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I'm not certain enough to give a creative and definitive answer to this question (Just do Grayson again!) so I'll instead go with the shotgun approach with a wide variety of options:

    ...

    2.) Dick's identity crisis (no not that kind of Identity Crisis!): People don't have their lives figured out right away, sometimes they realize that they are along a path that's not for them and they have to backtrack a little. I'd dedicate a storyline to Dick realizing that everything about the Dixon-era status quo (and subsequent retreads) are simply not for him. Like a student switching majors or careers or cities, I'd have Dick realize that he simply cannot have a normal life. He will never be satisfied as a bartender or a taxi-cab driver. Bludhaven is a cage keeping him down. Dick should struggle with this realization. He should see this as quitting or giving up, something he should never do. But with the advice of his family and friends, he should realize that he should make the choice to leave Bludhaven behind. He is still helping people all around the world, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing to be ashamed of for realizing that something is not right for you.

    ....

    6.) Put him in charge of Batman Inc.: I'll be honest, I have not idea what the current status of Batman Inc. is. But when Seeley talked about Dick being a one man international strike force of the Bat during his early Rebirth interviews, it brought the idea of Inc. to mind. With Bruce busy in Gotham, make Nightwing in charge of supporting the various Batmen and Batwomen around the world. Helping out where need be and doing missions under no Batman's jurisdiction.

    7.) Do Grayson again!: Yeah I know that the lazy one but its the one we all want. But since its so lazy I'll give it a pitch too. When Tiger first appeared, everyone on CBR was speculating that he was going to be end up being a villain. I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that some were speculating that this was King's attempt to make "Dick's Joker." So that impression stuck with me. And maybe with that in mind I've never view Tiger in a heroic light. They revealed his duplicity in the final issues of Grayson but seemingly gloss over it afterward, making him all buddy buddy with Dick again. I'm also still dead certain that Rise of the Raptor was written from the bones of a story that was originally made for Tiger. So with all of this wild speculation in mind, I'd have Tiger call Dick in for a favor only to realize that he is being manipulated.

    From what I recall about Tiger's background, he is from Kandahar, the former capital of the Taliban in Afghanistan, which was also previously occupied by the Soviets. So I would probably have Tiger deeply resentful of what he sees to be imperialist influence of his home. He would work covertly to destabilize the US-backed government in the region and manipulate Dick into working against the international community. I'd pit him up against order-keeping organizations like Checkmate, US backed affiliations like Argus and the Suicide Squad, and chaos agents like Leviathan and various mercenaries like Deathstroke. When he realizes he's been had, he fights against Spyral and takes down Tiger, winding up in charge of the organization.
    Go with me on this, combine 2, 6, and 7. Dick leaves Bludhaven to do "One job for a friend! Its a favor!" despite Babs' protest. He gets sucked in though. He's doing good things, heroic things in places where the Justice League can't openly operate (like Biyalia and Rhelasia). He doesn't have any interest in a day job or a normal life. "Babs! Your dad is a police commissioner. You go to school and love studying. You have roots in a normal life. My dad is the freaking Batman! The closest thing I've ever had to a normal life was a circus! A CIRCUS! I can't just tend bar or drive a taxi, okay?! And I can't just live off Bruce's money! Spyral is doing good work. Work that I'd probably do on my own, and I don't have to pretend to live a 'normal' life. And yeah, the paycheck and room and board is nice."

    Fast forward a bit, and Dick realizes that Tiger has betrayed him, that Spyral isn't really on the side of the angels afterall. Perhaps in a climactic conflict, the Justice League shows up and fights against Spyral with Dick there. Dick loses his cool. Dramatic, multipage fight with Tiger, where ever they are, EVERYTHING is on fire. Dick and Tiger both escape, but Dick now has a singular focus. Spyral will burn.

    Dick knows that this is too much for him to do alone. This isn't a job for one street level hero. This isn't even a job for the Titans. To fight Spyral, he is going to need an entire network of agents he trusts. He sets about rebuilding Batman, Inc. Gucho. Nightrunner. Everyone. With his experience with Spyral, he knows what he is doing. This isn't just a vigilante on an undercover mission. He isn't a mole anymore. He is a spy, espionage is his forte.

    And as for his supporting cast here, I say stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Stop being so self conscious about sparing space with Batman. Alfred would make a 'M' type character. Lucius Fox can show up from time to time as a 'Q' type. Let him come full circle. He wanted to get away from his family and be his own man. Now he see's that those two don't go hand in hand quite as well as he'd previously thought.

    I think it might be time to reread Morrison + King&Seeley.

  4. #4
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    1)Give Nightwing a decent writer
    2)Give Nightwing a decent artist
    3)LET the creative team tell the story they want to tell

    There.

  5. #5
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onthetrapeze View Post
    1)Give Nightwing a decent writer
    2)Give Nightwing a decent artist
    3)LET the creative team tell the story they want to tell

    There.
    4) Gets completely thrown out with the next team.
    5) Gets story blown up for the next bat/dcu event.
    6) creative team is good than gets moved onto "bigger characters that matters".

    There. Right back here.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    4) Gets completely thrown out with the next team.
    5) Gets story blown up for the next bat/dcu event.
    6) creative team is good than gets moved onto "bigger characters that matters".

    There. Right back here.
    Lol 1)-3) is what we want and 4)-6)is what we get.

  7. #7
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Not a full-on direction but a good foundation to springboard ideas off of. I think this is also another problem that Dick has had recently, most of the current arcs don't have much consistency or build off of what was before. Bludhaven changes styles/looks arc to arc, new unheard of villains show up and aren't seen again, ideas are built up only to be forgotten, etc. DC needs to reestablish a full on history for Dick, I think not really knowing how Dick was as Robin or as Batman or how he became Nightwing other than references can make up up for not seeing it.

    First get a writer that knows and loves this character, have them reread a bunch of Dick's stories before they start working. I think an arc about Dick traveling the world reconnecting to his roots is what the character needs. Like what Bruce did with Dick and Tim at the end of Infinite Crisis. Revisiting old friends, following Haly's Circus for a bit, establishing who Dick is feels like something DC needs. There doesn't feel like anyone not named Seeley who gets who Dick is. We get a paranoid, ineffectual, pushover from Abnett, Higgins we get a psuedo-Robin who won't leave the nest with a questionable history, Percy gives us a Cave man who can't fight his own battles and just loves cereal, now with Lobdell we have a homeless criminal cab driver. An arc showing Dick reflect on his life would be a great way to do a ton of team-ups (in present or flashback so they can do anything reference past stories, do original ideas or let Wally be used without dying again), establish how the current Dick was as a Robin and how much he has changed as Nightwing, and really work as a bible for future writers of this character, show who he is, what he stands for, etc. The Dick we have been following (hell most of the DCU) for the past 7 years aren't the same characters. So many things have changed and character bias or headcannon or whatever has been stuck to this era of comics. Dick changes on a whim depending who is in the driver's seat, I'd be fine with bad stories if we at least got a consistent Dick Grayson characterization across the board.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  8. #8
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    Well, sorry if this sound angry, but i have to say it.

    I think as long as it's about "his roots"and his past, it wont work. The circle of 4, 5, 6 will repeat again. The problem is while canon AND fans still think Dick as Pre-flashpoint Dick even Pre-Crisis Dick, WHILE Batman treats him like Prime-Earth Dick. That's a big no. Prime Earth Dick is simply not the old Dick, no matter how many times DC and all his fans tries to insert a past that's not his into his book. That's the problem with Snyder's New52 Batman i always hated. I love Bruce and Dick's relationship as much as the next guy but it's things like that that made him this 2d too nice and incompetent guy that's only Bruce's pet and more easy for Didio to screw over. Time and history do not work like condensing 80 years into 5 years. Well you can say Bruce or Tim or Babs can bullshit their way over THAT because they are the cerebral types, that Bruce is Batgod since the beginning, but Dick needs SHOWING his growing up.

    Pre Flashpoint Dick created NTT BECAUSE he already had TT and 10 years being Robin with Bruce. He came to Bludhaven BECAUSE he had been over the Titans. He became Batman BECAUSE he has had Bludhaven for years. He became the guy that's everyone loves because of time and experience, most formative being the longest serving Robin. In other words, nicer Bruce so TT, NTT and himself and DCU first, Batfam after.
    Prime Earth Dick is a different guy, who has had only Batfam under his belt, THEN find his way out AFTER his brothers have grown enough and find their things.

    Dc currently finds it difficult to decide which Dick they are writing, and Didio can't manage them. Some of them remember Prime Earth (Abnett) some remembers the 80 year old character (Snyder, Humphries) some of them just don't know, like Percy and King. I view Prime earth Dick as a different guy , so i never has problem with, say, Abnett Titans and Ric Grayson's attitude. I wouldn't trust Prime Earth Dick to a team either, he has less team experience than wee PF Dick. And it's not like Dick's only 3 ties in this Earth (Bruce, Babs ... others) treated him well either, it makes sense he bolted and flipped them the bird. As of now Dick is being treated by Bruce and Babs like 16 year old wee Dick back in Silver Age, who only had the fab five. So act like it., He needs out. Let him grow up. Don't let Babs control him, and don't let fucking Damian yell at him. Let Bruce stop being a bitch and say "You'd done enough for this family, go and make something for your own" Make a new history for him. Put him in whatever team ups you can think of. Even Batgod telling him he's shitty is ok as long as he gets MORE teams and mor missions to prove him wrong. Let him go to Bludhaven, but let him change city. Go to New York, Metropolis, or China or Mars whatever to hone his skills and gain new stuff, not "back to his roots", because now he has NO roots except the circus. Tim Drake is some god - send genius now, let him be Batman, Or whoever, because by conception they are all more competent Robins than Dick now. You can't be Batman AND act like a emo teen.

    With all that said, DC needs to fire Didio and have some guts, which they dont dare to and have not.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 11-13-2018 at 05:51 AM.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    There are a few already existing ideas that have potential
    Bludhaven as an original city
    Haley's Circus as a moveable home
    Spyral as international liaison
    So now to mix it up
    I'll come back later

  10. #10
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Dick center of the DC universe as he used to be.
    Staying in Bludhaven and sometimes globetrotting the world teaming-up with different characters (Titans fellows, Jason and Tim, Green Lanterns as Kyle, Jessica or Guy, Supergirl, etc etc.).
    Mentoring Damian as the brand new dynamic duo Nightwing and Robin.
    Sometimes paying visit to Gotham to help Bruce.
    Revamping his latin lover side, let him extricate between Barbara, Kory and others more complicated relationships like Helena Bertinelli...

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    I'm fine with the globe trotting and the sidekick.
    Dick needs some distance from the batfamily.

    I loved Grayson. Heroes in Lycra protecting cities. That's nothing new. If people have to have the finger stripes then why not make Nightwing a spy.
    Dicks problem is that Nightwing premise is just like batman Have him do something different. You can still have Blud but he doesn't have to be there all the time.
    I don't really care for Dick with the titans because he props them all up and frankly I don't think his generation has much of a future. He needs to be distanced from them. I want to team up or more interaction with people like Constantine, Manhunter, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, Animal Man.

    I don't mind a side kick however I need someone original. Dick and Damian have a great dynamic but Batman and Robin Reborn represents something bigger and something to do with the batman myth and the importance of Dick as Robin. Nightwing is separate from that.

    So Agent Nightwing that's what I would like.
    I don't want any shitty romance. No shipping.
    If we must have have love interests let him play the field but no Bab's, Kory, Helena or any established ships. Just sex with newbie who then go away.
    Last edited by dietrich; 11-13-2018 at 06:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    I'd have him globetrotting as well with a traveling circus as a cover-up for his spy details as Agent Nightwing.

    I also picture him as being a spider-man like hero of Bludhaven with the city being an analogue for Vegas. Basically a city to busy to focus on him so he can operate in secret. I'd throw in a mix of Street level and Meta-human villains for him to fight.
    Last edited by 9th.; 11-13-2018 at 09:05 PM.

  13. #13
    Spectacular Member babybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    I'd have him globetrotting as well with a traveling circus as a cover-up for his spy details as Agent Nightwing.

    I also picture him as being a spider-man like hero of Bludhaven with the city being an analogue for Vegas. Basically a city to busy to focus on him so he can operate in secret. I'd throw in a mix of Street level and Meta-human villains for him to fight.
    Bludhaven being like Vegas is so good. It connects with Dick's roots as a performer and it immediately makes the setting more colorful and fun. He could even have an arc where he's working in a show, whether undercover or as his day job. A supporting character could be a street magician/con artist that helps Dick from time to time.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Vegas Bludhaven as a base of operation, moving with Haley's Circus as a mobile base around the country when necessary, and keeping contact with Spyral for international missions.
    So there are three stages of stories. Local, Regional and International.

    The starting event is in Bludhaven, then moving with Haley, solving local issues in the towns they cross through, maybe working together with local heroes if it's a preexisting city, before returning to Bludhaven for a semi climax act. Then it starts over again with different set of towns to visit unless a town is popular enough to become recurring. This is the regular arc.
    Occasionally he'll be called to help Spyral. This international arc will be the grand event. The Movie, if I can say so, and can start anywhere, anytime, whether he's in Bludhaven or on the move.

    Dick himself still lives in the older, poorer part of town if he's not with the circus because living near people who need it is his style
    As a superhero, he operates at Twilight. This is Seeley's idea to differentiate with Metropolis and Gotham.

  15. #15
    All-New Member SuperZA's Avatar
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    Nightwing is awesome!

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