Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[Arsenal]

I very much hope you're right. But there's been no talk about Dick at all, on any level that I'm aware of. And we know a Super and a Bat kid are going to change their names, together, at around the same time. I fear the temptation will be too much, and since DC sees little to no value in Dick and Bette's never been a consideration (and hasn't even been using the Flamebird name on the rare occasion she does show up) I doubt he'd be enough to stop such a decision from being made.

It's largely an unfounded fear. But I can't shake the feeling that its possible.

If DC saw no value in Dick Grayson’s Nightwing, he would’ve been treated like the YJ generation and largely left to rot in limbo until somebody with enough pull decided to dust off the IP. For them to constantly give him a solo on going title must mean somebody somewhere sees value there, even if it isn’t the amount some people wished it was.

[Godlike13]

You mean they would be trying to launch an entire line around him for the second time. Nightwing wished he was treated like the YJ generation. For instance the YJ generation was given to Lobdell before they knew better, Nightwing was given to him well after. Nightwing begrudgingly is given a solo. Readers want it more then the people at DC do. As evident by the effort and work they put into it. Nightwing is not a character the comic side wants to invest into. Which is why we have Scott Lobdell ripping off We Are Robin right now on Nightwing. We don’t see the kind of **** we are seeing with Dick right now with even DC’s lowest selling characters, let alone ones that can go for 50+ issues in this market.

[oasis1313]

I very much hope you're right. But there's been no talk about Dick at all, on any level that I'm aware of. And we know a Super and a Bat kid are going to change their names, together, at around the same time. I fear the temptation will be too much, and since DC sees little to no value in Dick and Bette's never been a consideration (and hasn't even been using the Flamebird name on the rare occasion she does show up) I doubt he'd be enough to stop such a decision from being made.

It's largely an unfounded fear. But I can't shake the feeling that its possible.

I expect that Damian might take on another identity--whatever has the lower prestige so that the best will always be reserved for Tim. I still think Dick should find himself in charge of the Owls; maybe Calvin Rose can come back and help him.

[Godlike13]

Son of the Demon is a pretty cool name for Damian.

[oasis1313]

You mean they would be trying to launch an entire line around him for the second time. Nightwing wished he was treated like the YJ generation. For instance the YJ generation was given to Lobdell before they knew better, Nightwing was given to him well after. Nightwing begrudgingly is given a solo. Readers want it more then the people at DC do. As evident by the effort and work they put into it. Nightwing is not a character the comic side wants to invest into. Which is why we have Scott Lobdell ripping off We Are Robin right now on Nightwing. We don’t see the kind of **** we are seeing with Dick right now with even DC’s lowest selling characters, let alone ones that can go for 50+ issues in this market.

You'll never see characters who've failed multiple times being treated like this. I'd give anything if Dick was treated like the YJ generation--particularly Tim. If we ever see Timmy Wimmy homeless, brain-damaged and abandoned, breaking into houses for a roof for the night, drinking himself senseless with the other winos in the alley, and rubbing filth on his face to make a "mask"--THEN I will happily drink a gallon of printer ink for you. Tim fans will never know how we feel.

[Aahz]

You mean they would be trying to launch an entire line around him for the second time. Nightwing wished he was treated like the YJ generation. For instance the YJ generation was given to Lobdell before they knew better, Nightwing was given to him well after. Nightwing begrudgingly is given a solo. Readers want it more then the people at DC do. As evident by the effort and work they put into it. Nightwing is not a character the comic side wants to invest into. Which is why we have Scott Lobdell ripping off We Are Robin right now on Nightwing. We don’t see the kind of **** we are seeing with Dick right now with even DC’s lowest selling characters, let alone ones that can go for 50+ issues in this market.

It is imo hard to say how much of this was Lobdells idea, and how much was allready mapped out when he took over.
I mean he had basically took over on a very short notice after Percy left, and the first issues of the "Knight Terrors" arc was still written by Percy.

[dropkickjake]

I feel like we've weighed the pro's and con's of Spyral a lot. It gives Dick a unique niche to own and define, it's something he's good at but doesn't enjoy, which generates drama. But seeing Dick in a position he struggles with morally, issue in and issue out.....that might get old real fast, which means you've gotta find a way to grease the wheels and that could lead to Dick slowly seeing his values erode in the name of compromise. Dick as a spy might not be a fully viable direction for the long-term, without some big adjustments to his character no one wants. (I dont agree with the possible con's, or I at least think they're avoidable. But they're still con's).

Yeah, the question basically came from my constant toying with my head cannon series. Originally I was pretty much organizing my plan around the Seeley model: 1 volume Spyral world hopping then 1 volume in Bludhaven. I started to think doing 5-6 issues of him Chuck Dixon Nightwinging would totally kill the momentum. I've come to a spot where I think that all three of the lives need to be juggled in each story arc, just with different emphasis in different stories.

But a horrible thought has crossed my mind.

Right now we've got two Robins (Tim, Damian) and two Superboys (Conner, Jon). Bendis has said that this is temporary and names will be changed.

What if we end up with one of the Robins going by Nightwing and their corresponding Super going by Flamebird? It'd get "Nightwing and Flamebird" back together, pre-Crisis style. It works on the Worlds Finest/Super Sons vibe. And Didio dislikes Dick Grayson enough to let the Nightwing name go to someone else (even if neither Damian or Tim have any right to a Kryptonian name!). So if that terrible thing does happen.....what becomes of Dick? If he takes up yet another heroic codename.....what is it?

Well, I feel like Bendis is the one who is going to get to give his characters brand new identities with much fanfare and ticker-tape. That being said, I think that Damian taking on the name of Nightwing could actually be done well. He IS close friends with a (half) kryptonian, plus his relationship with Dick is one thing that has never really been ignored in n52, DC You, or Rebirth. You could make the argument that Dick has had a greater impact on Damian's life than Bruce. If Dick were to let go of the mantle for something better than the Ric bullshit, I'd be super okay with a Damian/ Jonathan Nightwing & Flamebird.

Not to rag on the character, but Tim taking over would irk me. There was a time when he and Dick were close, but that hasn't really been shown or even referenced much since n52. I don't think it would be good for Tim's character either.

I think it’s far more likely that Dick will (finally) get his own super and they’ll be called flamebird than we’ll see Tim/Dami take the NW mantle while their super becomes flamebird.

I don't think this well ever happen, actually. At least not with Didio about. I think that Chris Kent (who may not get that last name in this universe) would work perfectly. Dick has a thing for befriending/mentoring children of super villains.

[Ascended]

If DC saw no value in Dick Grayson’s Nightwing, he would’ve been treated like the YJ generation and largely left to rot in limbo until somebody with enough pull decided to dust off the IP.

Typically I would agree with that assessment. I mean, Dick's book has outlasted Arrow, Titans, and many other big names (not BIG names, but still). It's one of DC's most consistent sellers. Lots of reasons why the company should be very happy with Nightwing's performance.

But then I consider the things management has said, publicly, and everything with King's story derailing Dick's title and the whole Ric thing, and I can't bring myself to rule out the idea that personal bias is playing a role in management's decisions and an effort to put in no effort with Dick is being mandated. If the book's sales drop, the company can cancel it.

This sort of conspiracy sh*t doesn't usually work with me. This is a successful business, I assume they're following solid business practices. But looking at where we are? Hard to think that management is doing this under the impression that it's actually *good* for sales or the IP. This one time, I'm taking a small sip of the kool aid and thinking the crazy conspiracy theories might not be as crazy as usual.

Yeah, the question basically came from my constant toying with my head cannon series. Originally I was pretty much organizing my plan around the Seeley model: 1 volume Spyral world hopping then 1 volume in Bludhaven. I started to think doing 5-6 issues of him Chuck Dixon Nightwinging would totally kill the momentum. I've come to a spot where I think that all three of the lives need to be juggled in each story arc, just with different emphasis in different stories.

Oh of course. You treat it like you would any secret identity, and each "side" gets a little attention each issue. This is just adding a third facet. It'll require a little more juggling, and one "side" is likely to get damn little attention in any given issue, but you spread the love around as much as you can simultaneously. Because you're right; a Bludhaven story after a couple globe trotting spy adventures could very easily kill the momentum. The same would happen if you spent a few issues in Bludhaven fighting the mob, then jumped out to Nanda Parbat for a story with Richard Dragon. Too much swerve.

Well, I feel like Bendis is the one who is going to get to give his characters brand new identities with much fanfare and ticker-tape.

I never said Dick would be getting any fanfare. Or even a new codename. Just that Bendis might decide that he'd like to use the name and that DC will jump to free the mantle up. They're not doing anything with Dick. They'd rather not deal with him at all, if they could get away with it. Hell, is Dick even calling himself Nightwing right now? I know he's running around with "Team Nightwing" or whatever, but is he even actually using the name again?

Im getting to be as cynical as oasis, here. And for the record I dont actually expect this to happen. I just cant rule out that it *might.*

[dropkickjake]

If Bendis wanted to, I'm sure that DC would allow it at this point. I get the vibe from Bendis that he imagines himself an iconic creator. I think he wants his name forever attached to these characters. He wants that "Tim Drake New Identity created by Bryan Michael Bendis" the was we see "Batman created by Bob Kane" and "Nightwing created by Marv Wolfman"

[Godlike13]

I’m not sure Didio is anymore a fan of “Nightwing" then he is Dick. Having say Tim take up the Nightwing name would just replicate the same situation that he says he has issues with when it comes to Dick as Nightwing. Then again, back in IC he wanted to kill Dick and have Jason become Nightwing so who the hell knows.

[DevilBat66]

Did not think I would ever miss the Spyral days but at least I could read "Grayson".

Haven't even cracked this book open in months.

Can't we please have a Nightwing book with him and a cool teen sidekick fighting colorful outlandish villains? Why is that so much to ask for?

[dietrich]

I very much hope you're right. But there's been no talk about Dick at all, on any level that I'm aware of. And we know a Super and a Bat kid are going to change their names, together, at around the same time. I fear the temptation will be too much, and since DC sees little to no value in Dick and Bette's never been a consideration (and hasn't even been using the Flamebird name on the rare occasion she does show up) I doubt he'd be enough to stop such a decision from being made.

It's largely an unfounded fear. But I can't shake the feeling that its possible.

DC might hit us with a twist. Conner becomes Nightwing to Tim's Flamebird

I'm not a fan of either of the current Robin and Superboy duo's taking the Nightwing and Flamebird names.

[Ascended]

DC might hit us with a twist. Conner becomes Nightwing to Tim's Flamebird

I'm not a fan of either of the current Robin and Superboy duo's taking the Nightwing and Flamebird names.

Nor am I. But my preferences have never seemed to be a priority for the company, for some reason.

Again, Im not trying to start a panic or anything. I dont really think this will happen and there's no reason to think its being foreshadowed or anything. Im just paranoid after seeing DC drag Dick through the mud for so long.

[oasis1313]

Typically I would agree with that assessment. I mean, Dick's book has outlasted Arrow, Titans, and many other big names (not BIG names, but still). It's one of DC's most consistent sellers. Lots of reasons why the company should be very happy with Nightwing's performance.

But then I consider the things management has said, publicly, and everything with King's story derailing Dick's title and the whole Ric thing, and I can't bring myself to rule out the idea that personal bias is playing a role in management's decisions and an effort to put in no effort with Dick is being mandated. If the book's sales drop, the company can cancel it.

This sort of conspiracy sh*t doesn't usually work with me. This is a successful business, I assume they're following solid business practices. But looking at where we are? Hard to think that management is doing this under the impression that it's actually *good* for sales or the IP. This one time, I'm taking a small sip of the kool aid and thinking the crazy conspiracy theories might not be as crazy as usual.



Oh of course. You treat it like you would any secret identity, and each "side" gets a little attention each issue. This is just adding a third facet. It'll require a little more juggling, and one "side" is likely to get damn little attention in any given issue, but you spread the love around as much as you can simultaneously. Because you're right; a Bludhaven story after a couple globe trotting spy adventures could very easily kill the momentum. The same would happen if you spent a few issues in Bludhaven fighting the mob, then jumped out to Nanda Parbat for a story with Richard Dragon. Too much swerve.



I never said Dick would be getting any fanfare. Or even a new codename. Just that Bendis might decide that he'd like to use the name and that DC will jump to free the mantle up. They're not doing anything with Dick. They'd rather not deal with him at all, if they could get away with it. Hell, is Dick even calling himself Nightwing right now? I know he's running around with "Team Nightwing" or whatever, but is he even actually using the name again?

Im getting to be as cynical as oasis, here. And for the record I dont actually expect this to happen. I just cant rule out that it *might.*

I try not to be cynical, believe it or not--but what else can you feel after watching the same crap happening for over sixty years? "Blessed are they who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed." We have the anecdotal evidence of Didio wanting to kill off Dick Grayson and being sweet-talked out of it, more than once. I don't think he's into marketing or business at all; he's just an overgrown fanboy who wants to indulge his own leanings. Of course, the fat paychecks and bonuses help, too. Warners doesn't care what he does with the characters as long as they're not getting negative publicity out of it so he gets to be his own boss. It's a total dream job.

[Ascended]

I don't think he's into marketing or business at all

That, I disagree with. Didio clearly knows business. He doesn't always make the right call (no one does), and I think he lets a personal bias influence his decisions where Nightwing is concerned (which worries me greatly), but I actually think he doesn't have quite *enough* fanboy in him. Most of us here are uber fans, and *we* know that nobody wants that 90's crap anymore, or that a character we personally dislike is still someone's favorite and shouldn't be abused to further other narratives. I think Didio's a little too tuned into business strategies (that don't necessarily translate properly to this industry sometimes) and not tuned into the fandom enough.

Or maybe he's just a bastard who knows we love Nightwing and doesnt care.

Warners doesn't care what he does with the characters as long as they're not getting negative publicity out of it so he gets to be his own boss.

And making money. WB doesnt care as long as the company is making money and not getting them negative press. And Didio apparently accomplishes that.

It's a total dream job.

I'm sure there are bad points to it too. Having to put up with fans being top among them, Im sure. I mean, Im a fan, and I'd hate to have to interact with us if I were on the business side. Because we do not care, and do not know, about that end of things or how it impacts the creative side of comics. We must come off as a bunch of annoying bastards at times.

And I know you dont try to be cynical, brother. Neither do I.