Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[oasis1313]

Ready to get Ric because DC is going all in. Lobdell might write a worse dumpster fire than his Teen Titans. Good luck defending that guy.

Didio could stop this with one word. I think he’s the only person who’s happy right now.

[Ascended]

Didio could, but he won't. He's never viewed Dick as anything other than an aspect of Batman's story, and a problematic and outdated aspect at that. He's been trying to get rid of Grayson for over a decade. He's not going to stop this, he's likely a big part of the reason it's happening at all.

However, you know who could stop this and who actually *might* make that call? Whoever Didio answers to at DC. Of course, those people don't care about the comics at all, as long as the publishing line as a whole is turning a profit. But if those people notice that the Titans show is popular, or if that rumored Nightwing movie actually happens? All it takes is a memo and Didio has to stop sh*ting on Nightwing whether he likes it or not. And if that day comes, I hope someone gets a photograph of Didio's face when he finds out that he has to stop being a dick to Dick.

These are unlikely to happen of course; the success of Titans is more likely to result in yet another Titans reunion in the comics, and I have no faith in DC to get a Nightwing movie off the ground, much less make it worth watching. But it's possible, and if nothing else Didio will eventually be replaced and his successor might have more wisdom.

In any case, Dick Grayson will endure. He's survived eighty years (more or less) and seen plenty of low points. He'll survive Didio just like he survived McCarthy and Seduction of the Innocent.

[oasis1313]

Didio could, but he won't. He's never viewed Dick as anything other than an aspect of Batman's story, and a problematic and outdated aspect at that. He's been trying to get rid of Grayson for over a decade. He's not going to stop this, he's likely a big part of the reason it's happening at all.

However, you know who could stop this and who actually *might* make that call? Whoever Didio answers to at DC. Of course, those people don't care about the comics at all, as long as the publishing line as a whole is turning a profit. But if those people notice that the Titans show is popular, or if that rumored Nightwing movie actually happens? All it takes is a memo and Didio has to stop sh*ting on Nightwing whether he likes it or not. And if that day comes, I hope someone gets a photograph of Didio's face when he finds out that he has to stop being a dick to Dick.

These are unlikely to happen of course; the success of Titans is more likely to result in yet another Titans reunion in the comics, and I have no faith in DC to get a Nightwing movie off the ground, much less make it worth watching. But it's possible, and if nothing else Didio will eventually be replaced and his successor might have more wisdom.

In any case, Dick Grayson will endure. He's survived eighty years (more or less) and seen plenty of low points. He'll survive Didio just like he survived McCarthy and Seduction of the Innocent.

It always astonishes me that a publisher would get such a fanboy hate on one of his own products. By logic, he should have the same opinion of Jason, Tim, and Damian that he does of Dick--aren't they redundant, too? As Publisher, I think he's DC's Ultimate Boss--for now. Someone at Warners could send him a memo to stop the Ric Raff stuff, but this is piddly stuff to a big conglomerate. Didio is probably still ticked off that he got persuaded not to kill Dick in the last several Crises and decided to go for "death by a thousand (paper) cuts" method as payback. Or maybe he does have some idea that this is wonderful.

[Godlike13]

I still think this has more to do with the Bat office, and the editors behind the Nightwing book, then necessarily Didio himself. They are the ones that took the idea and turned it into ugly filthy homless taxi driver and a team of nobody Nightwings.

[Ascended]

Editorial definitely gets some of the burn for this too, absolutely. We can't know exactly how much of this came from where, but at the end of the day the editors have made a dog's dinner of things. Their job is to turn a profit with quality product and they've failed to do that. Even if they were given crap to work with, it's their job to make the most of it.

However, I fall under the business theory that the guy at the top is ultimately responsible for bad business decisions, no matter how inconsequential or small. If he didn't approve a thing personally, he still approved of the people who did. A bad run or a wrong direction is going to happen, stuff slips or just doesnt turn out right or whatever. Sh*t happens. This Nightwing treatment however, is abuse of company resources and loss of potential revenue. If an employee of mine was doing this maliciously, as Didio seems to be (not just Ric, but the disregard and abuse Dick's seen since 06), I'd fire him on the spot. You never devalue your own product willfully, regardless of your personal opinion of that product. And whether Didio wants to recognize it or not, Nightwing appears to be very much its own product, no matter how much it's also a compliment product to Batman.

[Ascended]

So if anyone cares, I figured out (I think) how I'd bring Mar'i into Dick's life. But in order to really sell it I feel like I gotta drop a quick summary of how the story would start. Because otherwise it's gonna sound a little dull and trite. Hell, it's probably gonna sound dull and trite anyway. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but it falls in line with my desire to see Dick in a more "Superman" type of adventure setting, it's as clean and simple an origin for Mar'i as I can get it, and it gets Mar'i into the world without screwing with continuity.

The sun shines brightly on the clean streets of Gotham. The steps to city hall are crowded with people. At the top of the stairs the mayor stands before a podium with a big key in his hand, and a giant banner behind him says "Thanks Nightwing!" In the midst of the crowd, Nightwing laughs as he fights a half dozen crooks wearing ski masks, carrying baseball bats or small knives. The crowd cheers him on.

Dick defeats the crooks without anyone getting hurt, just as everyone assumed he would and Nightwing accepts the key to the city with humility, grace, and humor. With a goodbye wave to the adoring crowd, glider wings pop, jet boots spark and Nightwing takes to the sky. Later that evening Dick returns to his spacious downtown apartment. Kori is talking on the phone and Mar'i is floating in the air playing. The family hug, Kori mentioning that Bruce and Selina are off on another tropical vacation but Alfred and Damian send their love. Dick kisses his wife and plays with his daughter. Towards dinner time, Donna arrives at their door and a short time later so does Wally, with Linda and the kids in tow; everyone bearing desserts and wine. Everyone enjoys a nice, comfortable meal and Mar'i is put to bed. Wally's twins are playing happily on their phones while Dick and Kori visit with their closest friends. Then the night sky lights up; the Knight-Lite hurls Nightwing's emblem across the sky, and Dick frowns. Something isn't right. But then Donna and Wally are saying that they'll stay behind to babysit Mar'i; Gotham is Dick and Kori's city and they should have the honor of defending it. Nightwing and Starfire take off, in costume, holding hands and smiling.

Elsewhere, a giant device of impossible design with a portal in its heart shakes and vibrates, energy shooting out of it and the laws of physics thrown out the door; rubble, debris, and monitors float in midair, energy crackles. Safely protected behind a thick observation wall, Queen Bee watches computer screens while her scientists nervously watch readouts and worker drones buzz about. One of her men looks at her. "They're in. But there's a problem."

I know, you're thinking "the f*ck is happening? What BS are you selling here, Ascended?" As the story unfolds we learn that HIVE's super scientists have, quite by accident, punched a hole into the 5th dimension and caused a small pocket universe to open. It's a boil on the skin of the 5th dimension, and when it pops, all that chaotic energy is going to blow back into the 3rd like pus, and possibly wipe out the entire planet. HIVE tried to stop it. And they can't. With time drawing short, they turned to the only people they thought might get the job done; the Titans, the only people to stop HIVE time and time again.

Unfortunately, they could only find Dick and Kori in time. But with the world on the line, the heroes have no choice but to help the HIVE clean up their mess. So they dive into the portal, hoping to find a way to close it from the inside; falling into an imaginary "Silver/Bronze Age-ish" reality built entirely by their psyches and the 5th dimension's imagination-reality warping physics. And they're totally overwhelmed and sucked into the fiction, forgetting their mission, forgetting their lives, living in the fantasy. But there are cracks; the world is crafted by how Dick and Kori see each other as well as how they see themselves and the inconsistencies start to bite. They've grown apart over the years and don't know each other as well as they used to. And that, more than anything, help them remember the truth. It's bittersweet, as this world shows them how much they still care for each other but also how far apart they are now. But with their minds restored they begin the hunt for the crux of the pocket reality, hunting down the focal point that'll pop this dimensional zit. But even knowing it's all a fabrication inside a sliver of the 5th dimension....they struggle with the idea of walking away from their little girl. After all, this artificial life isn't *completely* immaterial; what the 5th dimension creates in our world is, in effect, as "real" as anything else. And their mission is cosigning their daughter to entropy.

In the real world, Queen Bee and HIVE struggle to keep the portal from blowing them, and everything else within three lightyears, to dust. Hopefully while leaving the heroes trapped behind. It's not going well.

Time is drawing short, and as the tension between Dick and Kori elevates, and as the pocket dimension becomes more unstable, the world changes. It becomes darker, more dangerous, going through a kind of meta-narrative of comics history to a small degree. At one point Dick wakes up with a mullet. Kori laughs. Eventually they find the crux, the keystone, of the pocket dimension just as the reality starts to build to bursting. In an attempt to protect itself, this dimensional boil creates nightmare versions of Dick and Kori's greatest foes, and the fight to the keystone ends with each of them fighting a twisted version of the other. But the heroes win the day and find the pulsing energy vortex threatening earth. With explosives and starbolts, the heroes tear it open, where the backdraft will suck the 5D energy back where it belongs and spare earth. As the world crumbles around them and Dick and Kori wonder if they can get back to the portal in time, Mar'i pops her head out from around a corner; she followed her parents and she's scared.

In the real world, just as things look bleakest, HIVE trying to shut the thing down, there's a flash from the portal and Dick and Kori are standing there.....with Mar'i.

Words are exchanged between Queen Bee and the former Titans. A temporary truce is called, some ominous interest in Mar'i is established with Queen Bee, and the heroes leave. And Dick and Kori have to figure out how they're going to deal with having Mar'i in the real world.

From there it goes into the status quo I was talking about earlier, with Dick, Kori, and Mar'i living together but Dick and Kori not being together romantically. At least not at first. I'll not make this post longer going over all that again, nor Damian's reaction to Mar'i (his first real crush). All I'll add to it is this; the changes to Mar'i's life don't have to go down easily. Her parents, from her perspective, have basically separated but might end up together again, maybe. The world is different but still recognizable, almost "Twilight Zone-ish" but she's the daughter of Titans and much like Jon Kent or Damian Wayne, "weird" is largely just another Wednesday for her. This might be the weirdest, biggest thing to happen to her yet, but she has her mother's optimism and her father's love of adventure and she takes it all a lot better than she has any right to.

[Jared S]

Highlight of the whole thing:

At one point Dick wakes up with a mullet.

Well, darn, I was all prepared to dislike this and then you went and won me over. I liked the plot, liked the "discovering how long we have been out of love" bit (bittersweet in a good way), and liked the "traveling through different comic book eras" theme. I also like the idea of them coming to see their daughter as a person instead of an illusion, despite the fact that she is not "real" in their world. Overall, it's a story I would pick up...

My minor criticisms would be that I don't think Dick or Starfire would see themselves as permanent protectors of Gotham (particularly since Dick has gone to such trouble to set himself up as a hero separate from Batman), so I don't know why the broken pocket dimension would place them there. Also, it seems odd that HIVE would go to the Titans over alternative options like the Justice League or some sort of specialist, even if they are major enemies, so I would personally just have them accidentally get sucked in while trying to foil HIVE instead (and possibly have them show up at the same time by complete coincidence, Dick because he was led there by Spyral, Starfire because she is tracking down stolen Tamaran technology or something like that).

My major criticisms would be that Damian and Mar'i would be uncle and niece, respectively, and thus a questionable romantic pair. (I do appreciate the symmetry with the Elseworld comic, but at least in that universe they weren't raised together as family.)

You could argue that they are not blood relations and therefore it should be permitted, since it won't lead to genetically incestuous children. However, if we follow that logic, then wouldn't also be appropriate for a biological uncle and niece to marry, so long as they were infertile or took steps to prevent having children? After all, the end result is identical! To avoid this conclusion, my position is that is inappropriate for any children raised with a familial relationship to marry (so it would be wrong for a non-biologically related adopted brother and sister to marry). Ultimately, I would prefer Jon having a crush on Mar'i instead (much less ethically complicated!)

My main follow up question would have to be: How would you write Mar'i as a character? What is her personality? If this is going to be her big introduction, then she has to stand out as an interesting character who is preferably different from both Jon and Damian (the other superheroes in her age category), and has something to add to the dynamic. If she's not interesting enough on her own, she'd quickly get erased/forgotten by future authors or, even worse, create a continuity snarl as people keep trying to retcon her.

Also, is that a Brandon Sanderson reference in your tag line?! I can't believe I didn't notice that till now.

Overall, good job, I liked it.

[dropkickjake]

So if anyone cares, I figured out (I think) how I'd bring Mar'i into Dick's life...

I dig this. VERY Dr Who.

How would you mesh this with your previous idea of Dick living something of a triple life?

[Ascended]

Well, darn, I was all prepared to dislike this and then you went and won me over.

Glad I did then! I mean, its not like this will ever actually see print or anything, but its nice to know someone enjoyed the idea.

My minor criticisms would be that I don't think Dick or Starfire would see themselves as permanent protectors of Gotham

Dick doesn't see himself that way, no. But from Kori's perspective, he left the Tower (and her) and has been orbiting Gotham ever since, so in her mind? That's his city now. Them being in Gotham, and the Bat-isms like the "Knight-Lite" are aspects of how Kori views Dick now. It's one of those dissonances that allow them to break free of the illusion, as well as meta-commentary on Nightwing's shift into the Bat editorial office.

Also, it seems odd that HIVE would go to the Titans over alternative options like the Justice League or some sort of specialist, even if they are major enemies, so I would personally just have them accidentally get sucked in while trying to foil HIVE instead (and possibly have them show up at the same time by complete coincidence, Dick because he was led there by Spyral, Starfire because she is tracking down stolen Tamaran technology or something like that).

Yeah, that's a weak point in the narrative but I wanted to avoid coincidence if I could. Unless you're Rand al'Thor you shouldn't rely on coincidence, I think. But HIVE wanted all the NTT, including Vic and Raven and Donna and Wally......HIVE remembers when the Titans were defeating demon lords, alien invasions, etc. They remember the Titans who were capable of handling a problem like this just as easily as the League. But they could only find Dick and Kori.

My major criticisms would be that Damian and Mar'i would be uncle and niece, respectively, and thus a questionable romantic pair.

You know, I really did question this aspect. I ended up going for it because of the Kingdom parallels and because Damian has a pretty weird family life anyway. It being almost-gross is why its included. But I'd definitely make sure that things there didn't get serious. They're kids, and if he has a crush on her, and even if its returned.....they're kids. Its not going to get any more serious than a kiss on the cheek, and not last. Mar'i is not Damian's Lois Lane.

Ultimately, I would prefer Jon having a crush on Mar'i instead (much less ethically complicated!)

I did briefly consider a triangle, where both boys have a crush on her, then abandoned it for the trite YA fluff that it is. But Jon and Mar'i......you know what, that strengthens ties to Clark. Yeah, good idea. I'm stealing it.

Wait!! Conner is alive again. Never mind. Mar'i has a total girl crush on the older Superboy, which would piss off whichever Super Son may have a crush on her. Conner, of course, doesn't even realize it; he just thinks Mar'i is a cute little kid.

My main follow up question would have to be: How would you write Mar'i as a character?

I only have a basic outline of who Mar'i is. We didn't get much from her in KC for me to go on. In my head, I'm basing Mar'i on my own daughter, who is happy and friendly and silly and smart but not a genius and doesn't always handle her stress as well as she could......and has a temper to make the sun look pale, will throw punches if she even thinks you're messing with her family, and is mercurial in her moods. She'll go from happy to screaming mad in three seconds, and get over it all just as quickly. So, chunks of my own kid with a healthy dose of TTGO! Starfire and Young Justice season 1 Robin.

Also, is that a Brandon Sanderson reference in your tag line?! I can't believe I didn't notice that till now.

It is indeed. Started reading the Wheel of Time (for the 3rd time) though, waiting for the next Stormlight book to come out.

I dig this. VERY Dr Who.

How would you mesh this with your previous idea of Dick living something of a triple life?

Thanks for the Dr. Who compliment. I was definitely trying to channel some of that. As for Dick's triple life with Spyral.....in his "civilian" guise, no one really questions anything. Aliens on earth are barely noteworthy and Dick and Kori were public in their relationship back in the day. So you see some tabloids about "Gotham Heir's Secret Love Child Exposed!" but little else. People remember that Dick Grayson dated a uber-hot orange model years ago, and figure they had a kid then that was kept hush-hush. It's a minor social scandal and little else.

Dick's superhero life takes it in stride just like everything else. Pocket dimension? New kid? Yeah, we've all been there. Dick's friends in the hero community welcome Mar'i with open arms.

Spyral.....no one knows about that. Not Kori. Not Bruce, or Wally or Roy or Clark or Damian or even Alfred. And Dick keeps it that way. It adds a complication to Dick's life because he's keeping the secret from people he lives with, but that's just standard secret identity shenanigans. Eventually of course, with Dick living with Kori, that secret is going to come out and we'll get one of those famous Dick-Kori fights, and that really drives home to Kori just how much Dick has changed and puts a lot of stress on their relationship. Kori would learn about it just as it looks like she and Dick are gonna get back together and this wedge would put a stop to that, in proper "dragging things out forever" comic book fashion.

[Jokerz79]

Lock Didio in a Fallout Bunker with plenty of Power, Air, Food, and Water for decades the rest will solve itself.

[oasis1313]

Lock Didio in a Fallout Bunker with plenty of Power, Air, Food, and Water for decades the rest will solve itself.

No, that sounds kinda mean. Maybe put him on a luxury cruise ship in the Owners Suite and the only other passengers are five hundred Playboy Bunnies. We want him to be happy so he'll never come back. .

We could start a GoFundMe page to save up bribe money . . .

[Jokerz79]

No, that sounds kinda mean. Maybe put him on a luxury cruise ship in the Owners Suite and the only other passengers are five hundred Playboy Bunnies. We want him to be happy so he'll never come back. .

We could start a GoFundMe page to save up bribe money . . .

Hey they've turned old Missile Silos into Luxury Apartments with Theaters, Gyms, Game Rooms, and Pools even he can take one of those I don't want the man to suffer just away from the Phone and Internet

[astro@work]

I still think this has more to do with the Bat office, and the editors behind the Nightwing book, then necessarily Didio himself. They are the ones that took the idea and turned it into ugly filthy homless taxi driver and a team of nobody Nightwings.

^This!!!
Probably the kindest and most positive description I've seen of the current run!


Literally can't fathom what the goal was with the new direction. Other than a desire to kill fan interest in the character.

[oasis1313]

^This!!!
Probably the kindest and most positive description I've seen of the current run!


Literally can't fathom what the goal was with the new direction. Other than a desire to kill fan interest in the character.

I think Tim should be in the ugly filthy homeless taxi driver role next.

[Ascended]

I feel like the thread kinda died after I posted those big responses. Sorry guys.