Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[Caivu]

That doesn't even make sense, West Point isn't some training ground for vigilantes.

You're right, it isn't. But the skills, and most importantly the discipline, that it instills can transfer over. That's part of why Kate is still a little irritated with her, because Bette isn't attending for its own sake, but so she can better equipped as a crimefighter.

Bette was already getting vigilante training for the same person Kate got hers. Bette is not Kate. When has she ever shown interest in military life.

She's showing it right now, since she wants to emulate Kate and thinks this is the way to do it. Kate was deliberately hard on her because she doesn't want her to be a vigilante if possible.

Having her copy Kate and go to West Point is incredibly lazy.

Again, no it isn't. Bette wants to emulate Kate. This isn't a bad way to do it.

And no, not its not hurtle. She's specifically there to be out of the way. A line of dialogue is not a hurtle. They could literally just ignore it and it would have no impact.

You're talking about metafictional stuff. What I'm talking about is what makes sense from an internal perspective in the universe. Bette leaving WP would realistically have major consequences for her on at least two fronts, and ignoring that is bad.

And if Hawkfire wasn't a hurtle for them to send Bette off to West Point, i don't see why West Point, something that hasn't consisted of anything more then a line of throw away dialogue to explain why she isn't around, would be a hurtle if someone wanted to actually do something with her.

Hawkfire wasn't a hurdle either in or out of text; yeah, she was in comic limbo, but she had also stopped being Hawkfire due to serious injury, mere months after recovering from another serious injury.

Like i said before, at most all it would take is Bette saying how she's not Kate, and how military life is not for her.

And that should have major consequences. Bette would have the person she admires possibly more than anyone else quite reasonably thinking she's a flake, for one.

What if Bette decided she was tired of trying to impress Kate? These really aren’t story hurdles at all. It’s cool if you want Bette to remain in Kate’s sphere of influence, but I really don’t think it would be difficult to move her away.

That could be a reasonable direction, but it would absolutely still have hurdles. When I refer to that, I mean consequences. In this case, it means that if Bette leaves WP, she not only has to repay her tuition, she loses credibility and hurts her reputation with her role model.

I did a tour in the Air Force, which is a lot more laid back than the Army, got a lot of good experience and war stories. But when they say, "It's not a job--it's a way of life," they're not kidding. Bette is too free-spirited to be locked up and tied down like that.

I mean... you can probably say the same about many cadets who enter the Academy and fulfill their obligation or even go on to have longer military careers.

[Armor of God]

There are no hurdles, DC has destroyed and rebooted universes, a throwaway line from Tynion's Tec is a piece of cake. If they want to move her away from Kate then all they have to do is make her quit or something, there that's all.

[Caivu]

There are no hurdles, DC has destroyed and rebooted universes, a throwaway line from Tynion's Tec is a piece of cake. If they want to move her away from Kate then all they have to do is make her quit or something, there that's all.

And doing so with no consequences is bad writing.

[Armor of God]

And doing so with no consequences is bad writing.

It comes down to the execution, nothing bad about the idea itself.

[Armor of God]

Yeah Bette is the kind of person who is a hero for the fun and adventure of it all. Not out of a sense of duty that would drive her life.

They were just trying to align her character with Kate's even more, never mind the few decades of history that came before.

[byrd156]

They were just trying to align her character with Kate's even more, never mind the few decades of history that came before.

That seems to be a running theme with DC since the relaunch.

[Mr. White]

(note: "Just do Grayson again" isn't a wrong answer, but its also not a fun answer. Be more specific.)

Hahahaha. I was literally about to say this before I read that.

This is what they should do but on a larger scale, more focused scale. Yeah I'm aware that sounds like an oxymoron of sorts. Lemme explain:

A Grayson that is focused on the Espionage aspect of the DC universe. I'm talking Checkmate, Waller, Suicide Squad (the good version i.e. Ostrander era), ARGUS, Cadmus (not sure its defunct now). These can have supers as guest stars but not like regulars. Maybe every other arc. Will go as far as saying no interaction with the Bat family...well maybe except Alfred and Damien (not Robin).

As to larger scale - go worldwide. Stay away from Gotham/Bludhaven, Metropolis, Star City, Emerald City, Coast City, etc and go to Rome, Budapest, Kazakhstan etc.

[oasis1313]

They were just trying to align her character with Kate's even more, never mind the few decades of history that came before.

I don’t want Bette in that trap of having to answer to a “mentor” all the time.

[Ascended]

You're talking about metafictional stuff. What I'm talking about is what makes sense from an internal perspective in the universe. Bette leaving WP would realistically have major consequences for her on at least two fronts, and ignoring that is bad.

And that should have major consequences. Bette would have the person she admires possibly more than anyone else quite reasonably thinking she's a flake, for one.

That could be a reasonable direction, but it would absolutely still have hurdles. When I refer to that, I mean consequences. In this case, it means that if Bette leaves WP, she not only has to repay her tuition, she loses credibility and hurts her reputation with her role model.

I think Bette's decision to go to WP made sense, from the direction the writers were going. Bette isn't taken seriously as a crime fighter, she wants to emulate her cousin, and she joins WP in an effort to gain Kate's respect as well as viable skills. It all makes a particular kind of sense.

But it also makes sense for Bette to end up bailing out of the academy rather than finish. She's a free spirit, and if she realizes that she's either A) not going to benefit from the training as much as she expected, B) not going to get Kate's approval in the end anyway, or C) all of the above, I can totally see her dropping out.

Which would be a great development to explore with her. The tuition isn't a big deal since the family is rich (though Bette having to pay it off herself could be a good direction for her). But the emotional fallout could be worth a lot. It could force Bette to confront some things about herself and grow as a character, it would add interesting drama to her dynamic with Kate (who herself never graduated), and it could also provide the impetus for Bette leaving Kate's training and start working with Dick. There's no better teacher than Nightwing, and Bette has more in common with Dick than she does Kate (or Bruce or any of the rest of them). They're both adventurous, relatively happy, optimists. And seeing how Bette training with Dick impacts Dick's dynamics with Kate would just be extra awesome added on top of everything else.

I'd support Bette dropping out of West Point. All I see is opportunity for new stories, and a chance to make Bette interesting and relevant in a way that she's maybe never been before.

[Caivu]

But it also makes sense for Bette to end up bailing out of the academy rather than finish. She's a free spirit, and if she realizes that she's either A) not going to benefit from the training as much as she expected, B) not going to get Kate's approval in the end anyway, or C) all of the above, I can totally see her dropping out.

Which would be a great development to explore with her. The tuition isn't a big deal since the family is rich (though Bette having to pay it off herself could be a good direction for her). But the emotional fallout could be worth a lot. It could force Bette to confront some things about herself and grow as a character

See, I don't think it would that much. Being a vigilante is Bette's default state, really. And she already has a reputation for not taking things seriously and just bouncing around, practically rudderless. This sends her pretty much back to square one again.

To me, the bigger growth would be her gaining the structure she lacks, and realizing that there are other channels to fulfill the sort of life she wants. It would essentially be the reverse of Kate, where Bette succeeds in ways Kate never had the chance to. Though I recognize that wouldn't necessarily make for a typical DC comic.

[oasis1313]

Hahahaha. I was literally about to say this before I read that.

This is what they should do but on a larger scale, more focused scale. Yeah I'm aware that sounds like an oxymoron of sorts. Lemme explain:

A Grayson that is focused on the Espionage aspect of the DC universe. I'm talking Checkmate, Waller, Suicide Squad (the good version i.e. Ostrander era), ARGUS, Cadmus (not sure its defunct now). These can have supers as guest stars but not like regulars. Maybe every other arc. Will go as far as saying no interaction with the Bat family...well maybe except Alfred and Damien (not Robin).

As to larger scale - go worldwide. Stay away from Gotham/Bludhaven, Metropolis, Star City, Emerald City, Coast City, etc and go to Rome, Budapest, Kazakhstan etc.

I think I'd like to see Dick traveling a lot--going to those cities so different from America. It'd show his nomadic nature. I see Bruce as sort of the ultimate homebody; he'd be terrified of ever leaving Gotham because SOMETHING MIGHT HAPPEN without him busting somebody's chops over it; it really makes no sense for him to be on other teams because he's always thinking about protecting Gotham--his world limited to that city. The writers and artists could possibly have a nice tax write-off if they went in that direction: "We have to go to Rome now and get some local color."

[Ascended]

See, I don't think it would that much. Being a vigilante is Bette's default state, really. And she already has a reputation for not taking things seriously and just bouncing around, practically rudderless. This sends her pretty much back to square one again.

To me, the bigger growth would be her gaining the structure she lacks, and realizing that there are other channels to fulfill the sort of life she wants. It would essentially be the reverse of Kate, where Bette succeeds in ways Kate never had the chance to. Though I recognize that wouldn't necessarily make for a typical DC comic.

The way Im looking at it, if Bette dropped out of WP and had to deal with the consequences of that, *this* would be the development to push her forward; the final time she really dropped the ball and didn't see a commitment through. It would indeed send her back to square one (making her more palpable for DC superheroics), but for the first time with a sense of guilt and regret and a determination to not make the same mistake yet again. In the past, she's bounced from thing to thing without major consequences; people shake their head and say "Oh, that Bette!" but nothing ever comes of it, but not upholding an oath to serve her nation might be the "lightbulb" moment where she realizes that she really does have to change her ways.

I think we both want to see Bette end up at the same place as a character, we just want to see her get there in different ways. I got nothing against her graduating from West Point, but I also think it'd be quite interesting to see her drop out, realize she's a flake, and then make the changes in her life that she needs to. And since Im coming at this with the end goal being her sidekicking for Nightwing, I think there's more potential in her dropping out, disappointing Kate, and then going to Dick for training, rather than her being groomed by the military and then deciding, for whatever reason, to work with Dick instead of her cousin (or just serving in the forces). I think there's more potential in WP being Bette's last major failure than in it being her first real success. But either way I think it could work.

[oasis1313]

The way Im looking at it, if Bette dropped out of WP and had to deal with the consequences of that, *this* would be the development to push her forward; the final time she really dropped the ball and didn't see a commitment through. It would indeed send her back to square one (making her more palpable for DC superheroics), but for the first time with a sense of guilt and regret and a determination to not make the same mistake yet again. In the past, she's bounced from thing to thing without major consequences; people shake their head and say "Oh, that Bette!" but nothing ever comes of it, but not upholding an oath to serve her nation might be the "lightbulb" moment where she realizes that she really does have to change her ways.

I think we both want to see Bette end up at the same place as a character, we just want to see her get there in different ways. I got nothing against her graduating from West Point, but I also think it'd be quite interesting to see her drop out, realize she's a flake, and then make the changes in her life that she needs to. And since Im coming at this with the end goal being her sidekicking for Nightwing, I think there's more potential in her dropping out, disappointing Kate, and then going to Dick for training, rather than her being groomed by the military and then deciding, for whatever reason, to work with Dick instead of her cousin (or just serving in the forces). I think there's more potential in WP being Bette's last major failure than in it being her first real success. But either way I think it could work.

But could she remain on platonic terms with Dick Grayson, the nicest, handsomest young man on Planet Earth--now that they're both over the age of consent?

[Timothy Hunter]

I'd have Grayson take on a new persona, and further divorce him from the Batman mythos. Shift his headquarters from the familiar and in my opinion stale Bludhaven to the country of Markovia. The change in locations for the character would simultaneous serve as a breath of fresh air, and be used as an excuse to further explore the international workings of the DC Universe.


I haven't came up with a new moniker for Grayson. I was considering calling him Owl Man, but obviously that brings too much unnecessary association to both the Court of Owls and the Earth 3 villainous Owl Man.

[Ascended]

But could she remain on platonic terms with Dick Grayson, the nicest, handsomest young man on Planet Earth--now that they're both over the age of consent?

Well, I'm pretty sure that most women (and many men) struggle to withstand Dick's natural charm, but not *every* woman wants to sleep with him. In any case, Dick and Donna ended up having a perfectly happy, healthy platonic relationship so there's no reason Bette couldn't just be a friend too.

I mean, I'm sure Bette appreciates a good work of art when she sees it, and maybe she's got a little crush, but it shouldn't be a thing or go further than her thinking he's got a great ass. And since I'm talking about a sidekick-mentor dynamic, it'd be a little weird and maybe a little unethical for there to be much happening between them.

If they were more like equal partners, that'd be different and I wouldn't necessarily be against the idea of exploring something (not for it either, just ambivalent). But I myself cannot see Bette as being anywhere close to Nightwing's equal so romance is off the table in my mind. Both in-universe and in the real world, she's just not there.