Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[oasis1313]

Well, I'm pretty sure that most women (and many men) struggle to withstand Dick's natural charm, but not *every* woman wants to sleep with him. In any case, Dick and Donna ended up having a perfectly happy, healthy platonic relationship so there's no reason Bette couldn't just be a friend too.

I mean, I'm sure Bette appreciates a good work of art when she sees it, and maybe she's got a little crush, but it shouldn't be a thing or go further than her thinking he's got a great ass. And since I'm talking about a sidekick-mentor dynamic, it'd be a little weird and maybe a little unethical for there to be much happening between them.

If they were more like equal partners, that'd be different and I wouldn't necessarily be against the idea of exploring something (not for it either, just ambivalent). But I myself cannot see Bette as being anywhere close to Nightwing's equal so romance is off the table in my mind. Both in-universe and in the real world, she's just not there.

Not every woman wants to sleep with Dick Grayson? Maybe Kate Kane wouldn't be interested, but most young straight women would take notice of a guy like that. Dick always treated Donna like a little sister and never came on to her like Roy did, so she probably grew up to see him as she would a brother. But then, Roy has always been a skirt-chaser and Dick has always behaved very appropriately with women. If Donna had met Dick for the first time when they were both 21, it might have been different. I DO think you could make a very good story out of Bette coming to Dick, seriously wanting to change her ways and become a serious crimefighter. She would need some real motivation first--and then he would expect her to be a pro about it; he wouldn't appreciate it if she gave him reason to believe it was just to start an affair with him. Although I have no idea what Rick would do.

[dropkickjake]

I mean, they did sleep together in that young justice comic.

[Ascended]

There's definitely precedent for a romantic relationship; that's what Bette was designed for, wasn't it?

But that's not a dynamic that lasted, and Babs and Kori both have much better claims to Dick Grayson. Hell, Huntress has better claim to Dick Grayson now. Bette is so obscure, so under-used, that it doesn't really matter anymore if she was supposed to be Dick's love interest or not. She hasn't been that in decades, and barely qualified in the first place. And no matter what DC does with her, I'd rather see them try to build her up as her own character, than try to build her up by making her Dick's +1. Bette should be interesting on her own terms, not interesting because she's with Dick.

[Ascended]

Although I have no idea what Rick would do.

Im not supporting this train wreck, so I dont know either!

[dropkickjake]

There's definitely precedent for a romantic relationship; that's what Bette was designed for, wasn't it?

But that's not a dynamic that lasted, and Babs and Kori both have much better claims to Dick Grayson. Hell, Huntress has better claim to Dick Grayson now. Bette is so obscure, so under-used, that it doesn't really matter anymore if she was supposed to be Dick's love interest or not. She hasn't been that in decades, and barely qualified in the first place. And no matter what DC does with her, I'd rather see them try to build her up as her own character, than try to build her up by making her Dick's +1. Bette should be interesting on her own terms, not interesting because she's with Dick.

Yeah, and for the record, I agree with you (or whoever said) that a romantic pairing while he is training her may not be the greatest idea. Better for romantic prongs to be on equal footing in at least some sense.


Still not really sold on her as a character, personally. I’d rather see Stephanie Brown become his kid sister, but that’s just because I liked the Dick/Damian/Steph dynamic from her batgirl days (and BQM’s batgirl was absolutely fantastic).

[Godlike13]

Still not really sold on her as a character, personally. I’d rather see Stephanie Brown become his kid sister, but that’s just because I liked the Dick/Damian/Steph dynamic from her batgirl days (and BQM’s batgirl was absolutely fantastic).

Agreed, or Rose Wilson.

[Ascended]

Still not really sold on her as a character, personally. I’d rather see Stephanie Brown become his kid sister, but that’s just because I liked the Dick/Damian/Steph dynamic from her batgirl days (and BQM’s batgirl was absolutely fantastic).

I think Bette is a really fun, interesting footnote in the history of Gotham, but not really more than that. But I dunno, I want her to succeed! I'm rooting for this underdog man.

I feel like she's the "aspiring hero" yknow? She wants to go pro, and she's got the raw talent to do it, and she's even had a minor gig or two, but she's still on the outside looking in. I think it's a fun concept. And I think stepping up and making it to "sidekick" level would be a strong win for her.

Plus.....the name. I love the Flamebird and Nightwing myths of Krypton, and even though the name started with Jimmy Olsen I still think of "Flamebird" as belonging to Bette, she's had it so long. And in my head I have a whole thing about the Kryptonian gods and Bette and Dick, and that idea makes me warm up to Bette in a way I maybe otherwise wouldn't.

On the other hand, I've never cared greatly for Steph. >shrug< Got nothing against her, though I do see her as being part of Tim's corner of things more than Dick's (in my head she doesn't have a corner of her own).

Rose Wilson.....I like Rose a lot, she's a really fun character and I like her dynamic with Dick. But I struggle to see her working with Nightwing long term. I'd be very interested in being proven wrong though. Would you folks have Rose retain the Ravager name and costume, or get a new name and look?

[Badou]

The Grayson series was structured so well to me. It was the closest we’ve gotten to what I’d like to see from his solo series. It was far from perfect, but it had the best set up. It made Dick a full time hero (or a spy I guess) and it put him more into the DCU rather than isolate him, which is ironic given he was pretending to be dead at the time. It gave him so much mobility and allowed his creators a sense of freedom to tell the stories they want. So my idea would be similar in structure.

So I’d have Dick join the JSA (if they ever return) and become a full time hero working for them alongside their other members as Nightwing. Now it isn’t folding the JSA to become Dick’s supporting cast, but the series would follow Dick’s point of view as he becomes a JSA member. So it would follow him moving to NYC, interacting and developing dynamics with the other members while going on missions and solving crimes, and his daily life involved in doing all that.

It creates a solid foundation to build whatever stories you want on like the Grayson series did. No limit to the villains you can use or organizations you want to involve. He isn’t anchored to a failing idea like Bludhaven and can go and do anything that is required of him without being excluded from the DCU at the same time. You want to have a Spyral arc? An arc where he goes to space? An arc where he tries to solve some small street level mystery? You can do all of it and it fits within the foundation of the book because he is operating as part of the JSA. And just because he is a full time hero that doesn’t have some forced normal job to front as some personal life doesn’t mean you can’t also tell personal/slice of life stories doing normal things too. Obviously this wouldn’t be permanent but for a good number of years it would be fun.

Now why the JSA? Well I think the adult Titans is a broken concept and Dick with them is stuck in a position where he can’t really develop. He has to be the leader of the Titans and if he isn’t then he is deemed a failure, but this causes creators to have to undermine or sabotage his character in order to create drama. It is such a bad situation and he typically gets defaulted to the boring leader role that isn’t interesting anyway. Dick will also never be allowed to join the JL fully, so that is not an option either.

I just find the JSA interesting option because Dick is also a Golden Age hero, so he fits, and there is no Batman there to roadblock him as well. He also can just be a member of the team like how he was a member of Spyral instead of having to be the leader or take the brunt of the forced drama. It allows him more room for growth and personality since he doesn’t have to fill that role of boring leader. Plus I always liked its structure where it was a team that had multiple generations all operating together with a close family feel too, and it is filled with odd characters with interesting abilities.

I feel like ideas that a hero “needs their own city” are antiquated ideas. Sure NYC is generic, but it works well for what I’d like to see. It is filled with heroes, villains, teams, organizations and everything else. It has a bounty of resources that are available that a Bludhaven does not and he isn’t being screwed over in some Batman story in Gotham. I feel like Bludhaven operates as a prison where it isolates him and creators have to constantly struggle to come up with stories. Most involve dragging some Gotham character there anyway. I just never liked it.

As for more specific story ideas I never liked the idea of Dick getting a sidekick, but him having to mentor or look after someone I think is okay. Similar to what the Titans show is doing with the Dick and Raven relationship. So I'd take a character like a Rose Wilson or a Stephanie Brown and create a situation where they have to rely on Dick to help them overcome something. Like they develop some prophetic dreams or visions about something bad happening and the dreams lead them to Dick and away from having to trust Batman or other big heroes. It would be a long overarching story so you get to see their mentor and mentee dynamic grow.

And since he is in the JSA that means he can interact with Power Girl, and like they did in the Grayson series with Helena, I’d like to see a slow burn romance that builds over the course of the series between them. I’m so tired of retread Barbara or Starfire romances, or romances with some new token love interest that will be gone after an arc or two, and this situation would give them an opportunity to finally interact more.

Also you have characters like Wildcat or other heroes that Dick can learn from too. Because Dick is on a team with adults, some with more experience than anyone, it is a chance to actually see Dick grow as a hero. You can see him train and learn from all these other heroes and really absorb their knowledge and get put on a path to actually become a hero that has more connections than anyone instead of it just being some things fans say.

[dropkickjake]

On the other hand, I've never cared greatly for Steph. >shrug< Got nothing against her, though I do see her as being part of Tim's corner of things more than Dick's (in my head she doesn't have a corner of her own).

Did you read BQM's Batgirl? I adored her in that book. She does certainly belong more in Tim's corner of the universe, and provides a better counterpoint to Tim's character than Dick's. This is just me shamelessly wanting two of my favorite characters to interact more. And I think the dynamic of her and Dick messing with Damian in good fun could be hilarious.

Rose Wilson.....I like Rose a lot, she's a really fun character and I like her dynamic with Dick. But I struggle to see her working with Nightwing long term. I'd be very interested in being proven wrong though. Would you folks have Rose retain the Ravager name and costume, or get a new name and look?

I've gotta confess that I don't know much about Rose. I know she is Slades daughter and I know that Devin Grayson (i think?) wrote an arc with Dick training her back in Nightwing v2. I also think there was a backstory of Dick training her *some* in a fairly recent (last 5 years or so) comic.

But the idea has quite a bit of potential, especially if you spend a little bit of time reestablishing the Slade/Dick history. Slade should see potential in Dick and take something of a derisive but "training" tone during their altercations. Dick and Slade in a battle over Rose's soul, so to speak, has some legs. Just not sure if the story has been done or even overdone.

One thing is clear though, visually she needs to be reminiscent of Deathstroke. Nightwing working with one of his greatest foe's daughters is eye catching, so I wouldn't changer costume too much. It visualizes the story tension.

[oasis1313]

The Grayson series was structured so well to me. It was the closest we’ve gotten to what I’d like to see from his solo series. It was far from perfect, but it had the best set up. It made Dick a full time hero (or a spy I guess) and it put him more into the DCU rather than isolate him, which is ironic given he was pretending to be dead at the time. It gave him so much mobility and allowed his creators a sense of freedom to tell the stories they want. So my idea would be similar in structure.

So I’d have Dick join the JSA (if they ever return) and become a full time hero working for them alongside their other members as Nightwing. Now it isn’t folding the JSA to become Dick’s supporting cast, but the series would follow Dick’s point of view as he becomes a JSA member. So it would follow him moving to NYC, interacting and developing dynamics with the other members while going on missions and solving crimes, and his daily life involved in doing all that.

It creates a solid foundation to build whatever stories you want on like the Grayson series did. No limit to the villains you can use or organizations you want to involve. He isn’t anchored to a failing idea like Bludhaven and can go and do anything that is required of him without being excluded from the DCU at the same time. You want to have a Spyral arc? An arc where he goes to space? An arc where he tries to solve some small street level mystery? You can do all of it and it fits within the foundation of the book because he is operating as part of the JSA. And just because he is a full time hero that doesn’t have some forced normal job to front as some personal life doesn’t mean you can’t also tell personal/slice of life stories doing normal things too. Obviously this wouldn’t be permanent but for a good number of years it would be fun.

Now why the JSA? Well I think the adult Titans is a broken concept and Dick with them is stuck in a position where he can’t really develop. He has to be the leader of the Titans and if he isn’t then he is deemed a failure, but this causes creators to have to undermine or sabotage his character in order to create drama. It is such a bad situation and he typically gets defaulted to the boring leader role that isn’t interesting anyway. Dick will also never be allowed to join the JL fully, so that is not an option either.

I just find the JSA interesting option because Dick is also a Golden Age hero, so he fits, and there is no Batman there to roadblock him as well. He also can just be a member of the team like how he was a member of Spyral instead of having to be the leader or take the brunt of the forced drama. It allows him more room for growth and personality since he doesn’t have to fill that role of boring leader. Plus I always liked its structure where it was a team that had multiple generations all operating together with a close family feel too, and it is filled with odd characters with interesting abilities.

I feel like ideas that a hero “needs their own city” are antiquated ideas. Sure NYC is generic, but it works well for what I’d like to see. It is filled with heroes, villains, teams, organizations and everything else. It has a bounty of resources that are available that a Bludhaven does not and he isn’t being screwed over in some Batman story in Gotham. I feel like Bludhaven operates as a prison where it isolates him and creators have to constantly struggle to come up with stories. Most involve dragging some Gotham character there anyway. I just never liked it.

As for more specific story ideas I never liked the idea of Dick getting a sidekick, but him having to mentor or look after someone I think is okay. Similar to what the Titans show is doing with the Dick and Raven relationship. So I'd take a character like a Rose Wilson or a Stephanie Brown and create a situation where they have to rely on Dick to help them overcome something. Like they develop some prophetic dreams or visions about something bad happening and the dreams lead them to Dick and away from having to trust Batman or other big heroes. It would be a long overarching story so you get to see their mentor and mentee dynamic grow.

And since he is in the JSA that means he can interact with Power Girl, and like they did in the Grayson series with Helena, I’d like to see a slow burn romance that builds over the course of the series between them. I’m so tired of retread Barbara or Starfire romances, or romances with some new token love interest that will be gone after an arc or two, and this situation would give them an opportunity to finally interact more.

Also you have characters like Wildcat or other heroes that Dick can learn from too. Because Dick is on a team with adults, some with more experience than anyone, it is a chance to actually see Dick grow as a hero. You can see him train and learn from all these other heroes and really absorb their knowledge and get put on a path to actually become a hero that has more connections than anyone instead of it just being some things fans say.

I think you have some great ideas. Dick should definitely lead the JSA. After all, he's being aged up to the point that he should feel at home with all these geriatric gomers; he would definitely increase sales of JSA. And you're right--it'd be a great excuse to hang out with Power Girl. I wouldn't mind seeing Rose Wilson as a bratty little sister.

[bearman]

For a while, back in the late 90’s I think, Dick was spending time with the JSA, and I thought it might lead to him joining. It’s a great idea, and he doesn’t need to lead it...he brings other things to the table, like his stealth training.

[Anthony Shaw]

Sorry if this was already suggested, but Dick (along with Donna, Wally, & Roy) should have been part of the JL Odyssey team, with Kori & Victor.

Make the Titans League members, but ship them into space. A classic group in a brand new set-up.

[Badou]

I think you have some great ideas. Dick should definitely lead the JSA. After all, he's being aged up to the point that he should feel at home with all these geriatric gomers; he would definitely increase sales of JSA. And you're right--it'd be a great excuse to hang out with Power Girl. I wouldn't mind seeing Rose Wilson as a bratty little sister.

I don't know if I'd want him to lead the JSA. I like that he can be part of a team where he doesn't have to lead it but unlike the JL he won't be penalized for being young. Since the JSA has members of all ages. Plus no Batman to talk down to him as well. He can operate as a member of the JSA like he operated as a member of Spyral.

[Armor of God]

He's never going to join the JSA and DC already followed a similar premise with Earth 2: Society. JSA maybe a cure for Titan related problems but it offers little else. Besides no way is DC going to sacrifice Dick's Titans status in favor of JSA.

[Badou]

He's never going to join the JSA and DC already followed a similar premise with Earth 2: Society. JSA maybe a cure for Titan related problems but it offers little else. Besides no way is DC going to sacrifice Dick's Titans status in favor of JSA.

Which is why this was just a direction I'd like to see not one I think will actually happen. Kind of the point of the thread. I personally think it offers a lot more than just a cure for Titans problems, but to each his own.