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  1. #241
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Dick should be telling the Justice League what to do.
    Yeah, I dunno about *that* man.......

    But I do think the League should see Nightwing as an equal in the same way they view(ed) Wally. Dick's been a hero almost as long as they have been and actually showed up before a few. He's been trained by the best, gone on to train others, and has been at the center of many of DC's most popular eras, titles, and runs. He should have an open invitation to join the League at any time he wants. He sure as hell won't be running the show but a position on the team should be his for the taking.
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  2. #242
    Fantastic Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's a painfully limited view of what Dick Grayson is. Offended? No one is offended, but you're view is small. "Street level?" That barely captures half of Dick's history. The other half he spent fighting aliens and traveling through time. And not just with the Titans, but with Bruce (back when Bruce did stuff like that in his own books) and Superman.

    Why should such a large part of the character's history be ignored? Especially when that history saw some of the highest points in popularity for the character?

    Dick's definitely got one foot in "street level" and he's always going to be part of the Bat family, but his other foot is firmly planted in much wider genres. If that's how you like him, cool, you do you. But the character has a much deeper, richer history than *just* that one single aspect. DC might be foolish enough to ignore that and think they're making the right call...and for whoever likes Dick as just a copy of Bruce, good for them....but considering how wrong headed DC is about the character, I wouldn't say they're correct in their assumption that "street level" is the best answer.
    I don't care about what you call successful ''rich'' ''deep'' history... lol I can't see Dick time traveling and fighting any alien other than Superman, i would like to see Dick kick Superman's butt... even if it's not street level, The Dark Knight Returns showed that, that makes good story for Bat Family. God vs human and human wining is the best part. OMG... Does Daredevil have dumb ass time travel and alien invasion stories before Frank Miller ? i don't know that, i don't read crap. Dark Street Level is a vigilante at his most sopisticated. Nothing can compete with that. I used to like Jason Todd when he was villain, he had much potential, next best thing for him was to be the punisher of the DCU... But what they did... they sent him to space time travel around the multiverse in countdown.... OMG.... how terrible was that, i hated it... I won't read Jason ever again... seeing the same thing happen to Dick because of ''deep'' guys like you... i would be really sad. Don't pay attantion to them DC.

  3. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    I don't care about what you call successful ''rich'' ''deep'' history... lol I can't see Dick time traveling and fighting any alien other than Superman, i would like to see Dick kick Superman's butt... even if it's not street level, The Dark Knight Returns showed that, that makes good story for Bat Family. God vs human and human wining is the best part. OMG... Does Daredevil have dumb ass time travel and alien invasion stories before Frank Miller ? i don't know that, i don't read crap. Dark Street Level is a vigilante at his most sopisticated. Nothing can compete with that. I used to like Jason Todd when he was villain, he had much potential, next best thing for him was to be the punisher of the DCU... But what they did... they sent him to space time travel around the multiverse in countdown.... OMG.... how terrible was that, i hated it... I won't read Jason ever again... seeing the same thing happen to Dick because of ''deep'' guys like you... i would be really sad. Don't pay attantion to them DC.
    So I guess you don’t like Batman since in his main title he does immortality, Time travel, Multiverse etc.

  4. #244
    Fantastic Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy View Post
    So I guess you don’t like Batman since in his main title he does immortality, Time travel, Multiverse etc.
    I ignore JLA...i do my best to ignore that stuff...Ra's Al Ghul is great, they have cool sword fights...it's ''fency'' street lol Batman is too big, he sells books so they put him in everything... I don't want the same for Dick, i want him to be like Daredevil. No event, no larger universe other than some street level characters who fit in his world like Iron Fist, Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. That's it.

  5. #245
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    I ignore JLA...i do my best to ignore that stuff...Ra's Al Ghul is great, they have cool sword fights...it's ''fency'' street lol Batman is too big, he sells books so they put him in everything... I don't want the same for Dick, i want him to be like Daredevil. No event, no larger universe other than some street level characters who fit in his world like Iron Fist, Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. That's it.
    And the fact that you don't want Dick to be anything other than street level is fine. Like what you like. No one is telling you not to. You're actually getting what you want, you go and enjoy Ric Grayson; someone has to. But recognize that you're ignoring half of the character's history and development, and other people actually like that half. Hell, seems to me that most of us (at least here) like both halves and want to see each side of the character utilized. Just because you personally can't see the appeal.....well, that's you. You and Dan Didio.
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  6. #246
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    A bad writer can make our superspy or member of the JSA stories suck as well. No concept is immune to being screwed up. As far as being batman/daredevil "lite" goes, I think that is stilted language. "Does he work as a worse version of this character" isn't the question. No one works as a worse version of a preexisting character. The question is whether he works within that archetype. Does the character of Dick Grayson conceptually work as a street level vigilante? I would say the answer to that question is yes. Dark Mirror was a Dick Grayson story first, a Batman story second. If you removed the Batman suit and put him in a Nightwing costume, the story is just as good. If he worked as Batman, he works as a street level vigilante. The concept isn't broken or a non-starter, its just been poorly executed quite a bit. Not saying this is even my preference, but Dick defending a city is a concept that can work.
    I'd at least like to see writers try something new that can elevate the character than retread old ground that we know will not. It is all about taking chances on an idea that might turn out to be something much more. What we have now with the Daredevil-lite stuff will never elevate the character. How long are people going to continue to excuse it as "well the execution wasn't good" or that "this just isn't a good creative team" when time and time again and creator after creator it doesn't really produce any lasting stories? I think people look at the Dixon run in such rose colored glasses because it was something new back then and the first to do that with Dick's character, but if you took the same story and did it today I think it would be forgotten like most others.

    And I'd argue that he doesn't fit in that mold. It works well enough to be a mid selling book that will be mostly forgotten about in a few years until another writer comes on and writes another similar story that will also be mostly forgotten. If you define success as being able to maintain a mid level book then I guess it is, but I don't know if I would.

    You reference the Black Mirror story and that is a story that wouldn't not have worked with Dick as Nightwing. Since a large part of the story was Dick trying to work as Batman in Gotham and Jim Gordan was probably the co-main character or in some aspects the main character. Even the Joker's involvement relied on Bruce being away and Dick being Batman. It couldn't not have worked in a normal Nightwing series.

    But as for the concept I do think it is broken. The reason being the foundation that a Daredevil, Spider-man or Batman have is something Nightwing does not. First is that all three have a deep rooted connections to their city/part of the city. Gotham, Hell's Kitchen, and NYC. They are as much part of the character as anything else, but you can't say the same with Bludhaven or any other city because Dick as a character outside of Gotham doesn't really have any big attachment to any city. Him caring about Bludhaven as much as a Bruce cares about a Gotham is completely forced and not earned.

    Next Dick is a character that doesn't have the personal life that grounds these characters in these settings. Daredevil is a lawyer, Batman is the CEO of Wayne Industries, and Spider-man is a student wanting to be a scientist and barely makes enough money to get by from taking pictures of Spider-man. These are pretty simple concepts that get shuffled around now and again, but remain mostly unchanged. Dick doesn't have anything like this and is a big reason why creators struggle so much in trying to create some lasting foundation for him in these Daredevil-lite settings. He was a cop, a museum curator, a model, a bartender, a counselor, ran a cross fit gym, a taxi driver, and so on. It doesn't work for the character because he wasn't built the same way. He also doesn't have any interest in any of this and only wants to be a hero and interact with other heroes and creators constantly try and put him in that typical street hero box and he doesn't exactly fit in it.

    He was a kid from a traveling circus that was then taking in by Batman and trained to be Robin, then expanded to lead teams of super powered teens and dated an orange alien space princess with fire for hair and battled every kind of villain imaginable, and then became a cop (or whatever else) in Bludhaven doing his best Daredevil impersonation fighting some knockoff Kingpin. The versions of the character vary so wildly that no one really has any idea of what to build on when there is no one version of the character to build on unlike typical street level heroes.

  7. #247
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    I don't care about what you call successful ''rich'' ''deep'' history... lol I can't see Dick time traveling and fighting any alien other than Superman, i would like to see Dick kick Superman's butt... even if it's not street level, The Dark Knight Returns showed that, that makes good story for Bat Family. God vs human and human wining is the best part. OMG... Does Daredevil have dumb ass time travel and alien invasion stories before Frank Miller ? i don't know that, i don't read crap. Dark Street Level is a vigilante at his most sopisticated. Nothing can compete with that. I used to like Jason Todd when he was villain, he had much potential, next best thing for him was to be the punisher of the DCU... But what they did... they sent him to space time travel around the multiverse in countdown.... OMG.... how terrible was that, i hated it... I won't read Jason ever again... seeing the same thing happen to Dick because of ''deep'' guys like you... i would be really sad. Don't pay attantion to them DC.
    Dick and Superman are not inclined to fight each other. If a writer pits them against each other, odds are they are doing it wrong. And Superman, if he wasn't screwing around, would demolish the entire Bat-Family in one go, no matter what Frank Miller likes to say otherwise. "God vs. human" is seriously overplayed as well, by Batman, and we'd just be rehashing something for Dick that his already more popular and famous Bat-daddy did.

    You are aware that one of Dick's most prolific romantic relationships is with an alien woman, don't you? He spent a lot of time fighting the likes of her evil sister and the Gordanians while he was with the Titans. Along with demons, Gods and other super villains. Daredevil didn't have many time travel and alien adventures, but Dick and Batman did. And Dick isn't Daredevil. Putting him in Bludhaven just makes him Daredevil lite, and doesn't work on the long run if the belief is he can be more than that.

    We don't have a wealth of sophisticated dark street level vigilante stories for Nightwing, and any good ones that come down the pipe are more likely to be given to Batman or Daredevil (and it's not like, on average, we get a lot of sophisticated stuff for them either). Ignoring his wider history and keeping him isolated in Batman's world in which he can never do anything Batman isn't already doing and doing better has lead to the character being in the rut he's in.

  8. #248
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Dick and Superman are not inclined to fight each other. If a writer pits them against each other, odds are they are doing it wrong. And Superman, if he wasn't screwing around, would demolish the entire Bat-Family in one go, no matter what Frank Miller likes to say otherwise. "God vs. human" is seriously overplayed as well, by Batman, and we'd just be rehashing something for Dick that his already more popular and famous Bat-daddy did.

    You are aware that one of Dick's most prolific romantic relationships is with an alien woman, don't you? He spent a lot of time fighting the likes of her evil sister and the Gordanians while he was with the Titans. Along with demons, Gods and other super villains. Daredevil didn't have many time travel and alien adventures, but Dick and Batman did. And Dick isn't Daredevil. Putting him in Bludhaven just makes him Daredevil lite, and doesn't work on the long run if the belief is he can be more than that.

    We don't have a wealth of sophisticated dark street level vigilante stories for Nightwing, and any good ones that come down the pipe are more likely to be given to Batman or Daredevil (and it's not like, on average, we get a lot of sophisticated stuff for them either). Ignoring his wider history and keeping him isolated in Batman's world in which he can never do anything Batman isn't already doing and doing better has lead to the character being in the rut he's in.
    The only time I can think that Dick and Clark were really on opposing sides, was that recent Elseworlds story. And even then, after finding out the circumstances, Dick still didn't go there to kill Clark.

  9. #249
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I'd at least like to see writers try something new that can elevate the character than retread old ground that we know will not. It is all about taking chances on an idea that might turn out to be something much more. What we have now with the Daredevil-lite stuff will never elevate the character. How long are people going to continue to excuse it as "well the execution wasn't good" or that "this just isn't a good creative team" when time and time again and creator after creator it doesn't really produce any lasting stories? I think people look at the Dixon run in such rose colored glasses because it was something new back then and the first to do that with Dick's character, but if you took the same story and did it today I think it would be forgotten like most others.

    ...

    He was a kid from a traveling circus that was then taking in by Batman and trained to be Robin, then expanded to lead teams of super powered teens and dated an orange alien space princess with fire for hair and battled every kind of villain imaginable, and then became a cop (or whatever else) in Bludhaven doing his best Daredevil impersonation fighting some knockoff Kingpin. The versions of the character vary so wildly that no one really has any idea of what to build on when there is no one version of the character to build on unlike typical street level heroes.
    You bring up some valid points, though I'm not convinced its a broken concept. Your last paragraph, particularly. Problem is, though, that this very idea impedes the character in nearly every direction. We aren''t likely to see a lasting direction with Dick because his history is so varied that every new author is going to try to do his own thing rather than continue a mythos around him. Whatever new and (legitimately) exciting direction he is taken in, the next creator is likely to come in and do something different. Do you think that this problem is only an issue for street level heroes? Would metas not really suffer under these circumstances? (edit: These are actual questions, not be being jackass.)

    I think the that his solo books with him street leveling have had quality in step with the creative team. Under Dixon, his book was a solid B. Not spectacular, but typically good. Under Tomasi I think it was pretty great. Under Higgins, it was alright. Seeley's work with him in Bludhaven reflects the fact that Seeley never really seemed to be sold on him being in Bludhaven at all.

    How many times am I going to say that it was failure of the creative team rather than the concept? As many times as it is true.

    Again, however, I would quite like to see more of a mix. In the beginning of rebirth, I think the problem is that the book in which we should have seen Dick truly being connected to the DCU and out on these zany adventures was Titans, and it was hot garbage for Nightwing. You know what, thats giving it to much credit. It was luke warm garbage at best.

    I'm not sure that I've said this yet, but I really like your idea of him joining the JSA. Particularly him not leading it, but getting to learn from other heroes. I also think there is an argument to be made that Dick, while obviously not afraid of leading, begins to stress and take things very seriously when he has the responsibility of a team's well being on his shoulders. Him not leading, I think, would allow him to be the laughing daredevil we all know and love. A combination of him be featured in JSA and also having a solo (preferably in which he splits time between a superspy and street level hero) would be fantastic.

  10. #250
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The only time I can think that Dick and Clark were really on opposing sides, was that recent Elseworlds story. And even then, after finding out the circumstances, Dick still didn't go there to kill Clark.
    Yeah. It barely makes any sense for Superman and Batman to be antagonistic towards each other. it only really works in the early days, and then they are both super weird and awkward and can't properly express their bro love for each other later on, but everyone else knows.

    Dick and Clark? They hit it off right away. Dick is too different from Bruce to have the same hang ups. And another reason Nightwing should never, ever kick Superman's butt? He took the name Nightwing to honor his "uncle' Superman.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah. It barely makes any sense for Superman and Batman to be antagonistic towards each other. it only really works in the early days, and then they are both super weird and awkward and can't properly express their bro love for each other later on, but everyone else knows.

    Dick and Clark? They hit it off right away. Dick is too different from Bruce to have the same hang ups. And another reason Nightwing should never, ever kick Superman's butt? He took the name Nightwing to honor his "uncle' Superman.
    I'd like more emphasis on that nowadays. re-establish his so called ties to the DC Universe.

  12. #252
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    I'd like more emphasis on that nowadays. re-establish his so called ties to the DC Universe.
    I've been saying that for years now. Dick's a Bat with the heart of a Super, and if you design a book to explore that, you will have something unique and different to offer readers instead of another street level book that is doing virtually nothing different from any other street level book. You can bring in a new audience without losing the current one, increase sales, retain the ties to Batman (which really is a benefit to the character even when it smothers him), and opens Dick up to establishing a narrative voice and niche of his own. It'll build the brand, by extension build Batman's brand, and be more successful than the current title.....or at the very least, not do any worse.
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  13. #253
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Alright, this is another direction for the character I've thought about for a while. This is one goes in a pretty different direction than we've been going in the thread for the most part, and for that reason, I'm sure some won't like it, for a few reasons. This, rather than have him separate himself further from Batman and Gotham, has him embracing these connections and really doubling down. First, rather than have him in Bludhaven, I'd keep him in Gotham. Give him Amusement Mile as his home neighborhood. The Mile would bring in many of the elements we've talked about for Vegashaven. Next, I'd try to give him a civilian life that mattered, that stands in line with his principles, that makes sense with the character, and that borrows from Dick Grayson publication history.

    I'd establish Batjerk a bit. Batman is a loner, a gruff guy who keeps people at arms distance, even struggling to connect with his son Damian. No matter how large the Batfamily goes, No one really feels trusted by him. Dick is the glue that holds characters like Tim, Damian, Barbara, and others together. Bruce does seem to trust Dick, but he's never particularly warm to him either.

    In Dick's first arc, he'd face off against Two Face. I'd have Bruce do or say something particularly surly, prompting Babs to ask Dick "how did you manage to put up with him as Robin for so long?" "He wasn't always like this, you know. There was time where he was healthier, almost optimistic, even." This time of Batman's optimism was while Dick was still Robin, and before Harvey became Two-Face. Back then, Bruce really believed that he, Gordon, and Dent working together could clean up Gotham. Dick's confrontation with Two-Face and memory of Harvey's role in Bruce's healthiest period would give him a new direction: Work to become a lawyer, a government prosecutor, in order to put the crooks away for good.

    Dick would finish his Bachelor's degree quickly (there would be some line about how he only had a semester's worth of courses left or something), because him in undergrad wouldn't be too interesting. I like the idea of him in law school, working as an intern for Cranston and Wayne (or Cranston and Kane or something) law firm.

    Since I'm obviously pulling from old Earth 2 Dick, this Nightwing would definitely be on the JSA. I'd spend time taking some old Nightwing villains like Lady Vic and trying to reinvent them, or flesh them out to be more meaningful characters.

    I'd say the drawbacks here are pretty obvious. "Get him out of Gotham!" you say. "A lawyer? Too much like Daredevil!" Here's the thing though, Daredevil is the biggest drawback to him taking the bar. I think Dick's charisma, trustworthiness, intelligence and ability to read people could make him an excellent trial lawyer. He'd struggle a bit, I think, when it comes to spending hours researching case law, but I think doing things that are difficult for him can showcase weaknesses as well as strengths. Being in Gotham keeps him from being bigger than Batman, but respectfully, I'm not sure that he needs to be. I'd be very comfortable with him as Bruce's most trusted lieutenant and heart of the Batfamily. Plus, I think accepting his family could be the next step in his growth as a character. Going from a child who hero worships his father, to a late teen who wants to break out and make his own way, to a more mature young adult who appreciates his family and his own role within it.

    ------

    Overall, I don't really like this as much as the dual life superhero/ spy set up. This is just a plot bunny thats been collecting dust in my noggin for quite some time.

    I do think that Amusement Mile is a worthwhile concept. As many of us have said, his connection to Bludhaven often feels a little forced, and if he is going to be spending most of his time globetrotting anyway, why not have his home base (Haly's Casino) in the city he has the most connection to, Gotham.

  14. #254
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I've been saying that for years now. Dick's a Bat with the heart of a Super, and if you design a book to explore that, you will have something unique and different to offer readers instead of another street level book that is doing virtually nothing different from any other street level book. You can bring in a new audience without losing the current one, increase sales, retain the ties to Batman (which really is a benefit to the character even when it smothers him), and opens Dick up to establishing a narrative voice and niche of his own. It'll build the brand, by extension build Batman's brand, and be more successful than the current title.....or at the very least, not do any worse.
    I think Dick being a merging point between these franchises is so smart. I also love your idea of a kryptonian taking the Flamebird mantle, but I don't think Connor is the way to go. He, like Stephanie Brown, belongs more as Tim's best friend than as Dick's sidekick. Dick's Young Justice interaction is far more as peers, so that doesn't lend itself either. What about Superman's son (Jon Kent?). I could see Supes saying "There's no one I'd want him to learn what it means to be a hero more than from you, Dick."

    (Disclaimer: I don't know much about the character or his powerset.)

  15. #255
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Alright, this is another direction for the character I've thought about for a while. This is one goes in a pretty different direction than we've been going in the thread for the most part, and for that reason, I'm sure some won't like it, for a few reasons. This, rather than have him separate himself further from Batman and Gotham, has him embracing these connections and really doubling down. First, rather than have him in Bludhaven, I'd keep him in Gotham. Give him Amusement Mile as his home neighborhood. The Mile would bring in many of the elements we've talked about for Vegashaven. Next, I'd try to give him a civilian life that mattered, that stands in line with his principles, that makes sense with the character, and that borrows from Dick Grayson publication history.

    I'd establish Batjerk a bit. Batman is a loner, a gruff guy who keeps people at arms distance, even struggling to connect with his son Damian. No matter how large the Batfamily goes, No one really feels trusted by him. Dick is the glue that holds characters like Tim, Damian, Barbara, and others together. Bruce does seem to trust Dick, but he's never particularly warm to him either.

    In Dick's first arc, he'd face off against Two Face. I'd have Bruce do or say something particularly surly, prompting Babs to ask Dick "how did you manage to put up with him as Robin for so long?" "He wasn't always like this, you know. There was time where he was healthier, almost optimistic, even." This time of Batman's optimism was while Dick was still Robin, and before Harvey became Two-Face. Back then, Bruce really believed that he, Gordon, and Dent working together could clean up Gotham. Dick's confrontation with Two-Face and memory of Harvey's role in Bruce's healthiest period would give him a new direction: Work to become a lawyer, a government prosecutor, in order to put the crooks away for good.

    Dick would finish his Bachelor's degree quickly (there would be some line about how he only had a semester's worth of courses left or something), because him in undergrad wouldn't be too interesting. I like the idea of him in law school, working as an intern for Cranston and Wayne (or Cranston and Kane or something) law firm.

    Since I'm obviously pulling from old Earth 2 Dick, this Nightwing would definitely be on the JSA. I'd spend time taking some old Nightwing villains like Lady Vic and trying to reinvent them, or flesh them out to be more meaningful characters.

    I'd say the drawbacks here are pretty obvious. "Get him out of Gotham!" you say. "A lawyer? Too much like Daredevil!" Here's the thing though, Daredevil is the biggest drawback to him taking the bar. I think Dick's charisma, trustworthiness, intelligence and ability to read people could make him an excellent trial lawyer. He'd struggle a bit, I think, when it comes to spending hours researching case law, but I think doing things that are difficult for him can showcase weaknesses as well as strengths. Being in Gotham keeps him from being bigger than Batman, but respectfully, I'm not sure that he needs to be. I'd be very comfortable with him as Bruce's most trusted lieutenant and heart of the Batfamily. Plus, I think accepting his family could be the next step in his growth as a character. Going from a child who hero worships his father, to a late teen who wants to break out and make his own way, to a more mature young adult who appreciates his family and his own role within it.

    ------

    Overall, I don't really like this as much as the dual life superhero/ spy set up. This is just a plot bunny thats been collecting dust in my noggin for quite some time.

    I do think that Amusement Mile is a worthwhile concept. As many of us have said, his connection to Bludhaven often feels a little forced, and if he is going to be spending most of his time globetrotting anyway, why not have his home base (Haly's Casino) in the city he has the most connection to, Gotham.
    I like the character elements of this but I can't really see Dick as a lawyer. Plus the Daredevil comparisons would increase.
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