Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[Ascended]

Alright, this is another direction for the character I've thought about for a while. This is one goes in a pretty different direction than we've been going in the thread for the most part, and for that reason, I'm sure some won't like it, for a few reasons. This, rather than have him separate himself further from Batman and Gotham, has him embracing these connections and really doubling down. First, rather than have him in Bludhaven, I'd keep him in Gotham. Give him Amusement Mile as his home neighborhood. The Mile would bring in many of the elements we've talked about for Vegashaven. Next, I'd try to give him a civilian life that mattered, that stands in line with his principles, that makes sense with the character, and that borrows from Dick Grayson publication history.

I do think that Amusement Mile is a worthwhile concept. As many of us have said, his connection to Bludhaven often feels a little forced, and if he is going to be spending most of his time globetrotting anyway, why not have his home base (Haly's Casino) in the city he has the most connection to, Gotham.

Hell man, I do think if DC is going keep Dick tied to Bruce's apron strings they might as well double down on it and go all in. Really make it work for him, right?

I like the Amusement Mile idea too.

I think Dick being a merging point between these franchises is so smart. I also love your idea of a kryptonian taking the Flamebird mantle, but I don't think Connor is the way to go. He, like Stephanie Brown, belongs more as Tim's best friend than as Dick's sidekick. Dick's Young Justice interaction is far more as peers, so that doesn't lend itself either. What about Superman's son (Jon Kent?). I could see Supes saying "There's no one I'd want him to learn what it means to be a hero more than from you, Dick."

(Disclaimer: I don't know much about the character or his powerset.)

Good points on Conner. He's definitely better paired with Tim than sidekicking for Dick.

As for Jon, it'd be great to have Dick train him. It makes perfect sense too, though it might pull Jon away from Damian, which would be regrettable for both characters. As for Jon, he's generally a really good kid; optimistic and fairly happy, quite smart. But he's also got a very healthy dose of Lois Lane in him and can be sneaky and cunning. He's got his father's temper. He's got the Superman power set but isn't nearly as powerful as his father, but everything points to him possibly becoming even more powerful than Clark once Jon grows up. He hasn't met Dick yet, as far as I know, but they'd get along so well it'd make Damian physically sick.

[Badou]

Whatever new and (legitimately) exciting direction he is taken in, the next creator is likely to come in and do something different. Do you think that this problem is only an issue for street level heroes? Would metas not really suffer under these circumstances? (edit: These are actual questions, not be being jackass.)

I don't think it is just a street level thing but more a character that was built to be a solo character verses a character that wasn't. Solo street level characters like your Batman, Spider-man, Daredevil, Green Arrow, and others to the non street level like Superman, Thor, Flash and so on all have a common theme of being created and designed to be solo characters. From their initial appearance and origin they have a foundation to build on that is a core part of their character. Nightwing does not have that which is what I think is the biggest problem the character has when trying to tell normal street level solo stories.

Like Batman for example. His foundation is that he was born, raised, and became Batman all in Gotham. His parents died in Gotham and Wayne Industries he runs and Wayne manor where he lives are all in Gotham. That is the foundation and it allows everything to be built on it. So you have a solid setting, a place for villains and supporting characters, reason why he has so many resources at his disposal, and everything else spawned from that. No one is going to come in and say they want to scrap that and decide to make Bruce a doctor that runs a hospital instead, or decide to make him a reporter, or decide to make him a cop. That is the problem Nightwing faces. He doesn't have the solid unmovable foundation that writers can continue to build on. Instead they come in and are just shuffling their own ideas in hoping something sticks. His foundation is that he was a boy from a circus that became Robin and then later became Nightwing after creating the Titans (although they tried to remove that in the New 52). None of that really leads to him being a cop or a taxi driver in Bludhaven.

I'm not saying he can't sell well as a normal street level hero doing his best Daredevil impersonation, he has and probably will continue to do so, but I don't think it will ever become something memorable or special. Many readers are fine with him doing the normal street solo hero stuff, but I'd like to see more I guess.

I'm not sure that I've said this yet, but I really like your idea of him joining the JSA. Particularly him not leading it, but getting to learn from other heroes. I also think there is an argument to be made that Dick, while obviously not afraid of leading, begins to stress and take things very seriously when he has the responsibility of a team's well being on his shoulders. Him not leading, I think, would allow him to be the laughing daredevil we all know and love. A combination of him be featured in JSA and also having a solo (preferably in which he splits time between a superspy and street level hero) would be fantastic.

The main reason for the JSA idea was I want him in a situation where he can be a hero full time. Like he was with Spyral. Just drop all the typical street level hero stuff that feels tacked on in a Nightwing book like him trying to get a normal job, paying rent and stuff like that. It is those things that I dislike when they are trying to put his character into the typical street level hero mold when I don't think he fits. I'd love for writers to come on his book and do what they want for a run. Be it making him a spy in Spyral again, having him join the JSA, having him join the Green Lanterns, going to Gotham to work some normal street level crimes/mysteries and so on. Would just like the character to have the freedom of mobility to do anything that a writer could come up with instead of trying to fit a story into Bludhaven.

[oasis1313]

Hell man, I do think if DC is going keep Dick tied to Bruce's apron strings they might as well double down on it and go all in. Really make it work for him, right?

I like the Amusement Mile idea too.



Good points on Conner. He's definitely better paired with Tim than sidekicking for Dick.

As for Jon, it'd be great to have Dick train him. It makes perfect sense too, though it might pull Jon away from Damian, which would be regrettable for both characters. As for Jon, he's generally a really good kid; optimistic and fairly happy, quite smart. But he's also got a very healthy dose of Lois Lane in him and can be sneaky and cunning. He's got his father's temper. He's got the Superman power set but isn't nearly as powerful as his father, but everything points to him possibly becoming even more powerful than Clark once Jon grows up. He hasn't met Dick yet, as far as I know, but they'd get along so well it'd make Damian physically sick.

I think the events of "Death of The Family" should be made non-canon. Dick is really the only member of the Bat-Family who suffered any loss. Joker's literal butchering of the nice circus people was an ugly, sickening thing. I hate it that the circus was made into an evil sinister thing in "Court of Owls." As for a sidekick for Dick, it'd be Damian all the way for me. Why not? Bruce has no time for him as it is, and with Timmy Wimmy back like a gallon jug of Ipecac (I wiki'ed it for you below):

In 1965, the FDA approved the sale of up to one ounce of syrup of ipecac without a prescription. At the time it was approved, its use was recommended by the AAP, AAPCC, AMA, and the FDA's medical advisory board as a method to induce vomiting "for quick first-aid use in the home, under medical supervision", for use in cases of accidental poisoning.[2][3]
Current guidelines from the American Academy of Pediatrics, however, strongly advise against this and in fact recommend the disposal of any syrup of ipecac present in the home.[4] Many toxicological associations have also issued position papers recommending against its use as a first-line treatment for most ingested poisons,[5] because of a lack of evidence that syrup of ipecac actually helps improve the outcome in cases of poisoning. Moreover, accidental overdose of ipecac can result when administered in the home.[6] When dealing with poisoning cases in the hospital, it became difficult to obtain a differential diagnosis when syrup of ipecac had been administered, as this can add further symptoms.

[nhienphan2808]

Dick himself would want to be normal in Bludhaven. But I'd like someone to tell him or him to realise that he can never be normal and for him to accept that his foundation is the wider DCU. Badou put it in better words what ive been saying. Even Jason or Babs got better foundation than him, because they are from gotham. Wherever they go their characters stay in gotham. Where could Dick stay?

[yohyoi]

A Grayson 2.0 would be great. Anything away from Ric drinking himself to death.

[byrd156]

I feel like most ideas where Dick doesn't have to take the costume "off" are the most enjoyable so far. Dick's personal life rarely hasn't had consistency since the Dixon days so it's hard to get invested. Going for a full time hero with the JSA or Spyral or whatever leaves us with Dick not worrying about the mundane everyday worries. Dick has always been a workaholic and I think that this would be a good character trait/flaw to explore.

[Restingvoice]

I forgot to ask this, even though I asked it in Tim's thread, when was the first time Dick's story became controversial or divisive and why?

[dropkickjake]

I forgot to ask this, even though I asked it in Tim's thread, when was the first time Dick's story became controversial or divisive and why?

when people started airing grievances on the internet in mass.

[Ascended]

I feel like most ideas where Dick doesn't have to take the costume "off" are the most enjoyable so far. Dick's personal life rarely hasn't had consistency since the Dixon days so it's hard to get invested. Going for a full time hero with the JSA or Spyral or whatever leaves us with Dick not worrying about the mundane everyday worries. Dick has always been a workaholic and I think that this would be a good character trait/flaw to explore.

I agree with this. Dick just doesn't seem like a "day job" kinda guy. He's tried, but it never really works out and never quite seems to fit. But I suppose that shouldn't surprise us, considering where Dick came from and where he ended up.

So he needs a way to live without having to carry a normal job. He could live off Bruce's money but I'm pretty sure all of us hate that idea, and Dick has said many times on panel he doesn't want the handout. Spyral works great for that, as does any super-team that currently uses funding and has a payroll (just about every team has been structured like this at one point or another).

I feel like Dick's a tiny bit like Hal Jordan in that the personality traits that make Nightwing an incredible, skilled hero also makes Dick Grayson terrible at "regular person" things, like holding down a steady job and paying bills on time.

So......everyone's (well, not *everyone*) been talking about Vegashaven and the idea of Nightwing being the bridge between Bat and Super......I gotta bring up my old idea of having Dick spend time in Suicide Slum. It'd be a great fit for a "Super-Bat" model of Nightwing. The Slum is full of street type problems like gangs, drugs, smuggling, etc., but those things are all amplified by the superhuman runoff of Metropolis; the gangs have high-end military grade weapons, the smugglers are trafficking in metahumans, the drugs turn you into ten foot tall monsters........If you want Nightwing to still be street level but want him doing stuff that isn't completely overlapping Bruce's books, this would get you there.

I do like the idea of Nightwing traveling and not being tied to one single city, but I wouldn't complain if he decided to call Suicide Slum his home.

[Restingvoice]

when people started airing grievances on the internet in mass.

and which story/direction was that exactly? The first one.

[Gray Lensman]

A consistent one.


Preferably one that admits that Batman's former sidekicks have to eventually be able to stand on their own. Otherwise Bruce becomes a complete failure as a teacher.

[byrd156]

I forgot to ask this, even though I asked it in Tim's thread, when was the first time Dick's story became controversial or divisive and why?

What do you mean? I don't think Dick has ever been controversial, maybe Bruce firing Dick but that's kinda reaching I think.

[Jackalope89]

I forgot to ask this, even though I asked it in Tim's thread, when was the first time Dick's story became controversial or divisive and why?

In relation to certain people not liking him and his generation?

I don't know. You'd have to ask the people that actually have a problem with him.

[byrd156]

I agree with this. Dick just doesn't seem like a "day job" kinda guy. He's tried, but it never really works out and never quite seems to fit. But I suppose that shouldn't surprise us, considering where Dick came from and where he ended up.

So he needs a way to live without having to carry a normal job. He could live off Bruce's money but I'm pretty sure all of us hate that idea, and Dick has said many times on panel he doesn't want the handout. Spyral works great for that, as does any super-team that currently uses funding and has a payroll (just about every team has been structured like this at one point or another).

I feel like Dick's a tiny bit like Hal Jordan in that the personality traits that make Nightwing an incredible, skilled hero also makes Dick Grayson terrible at "regular person" things, like holding down a steady job and paying bills on time.

So......everyone's (well, not *everyone*) been talking about Vegashaven and the idea of Nightwing being the bridge between Bat and Super......I gotta bring up my old idea of having Dick spend time in Suicide Slum. It'd be a great fit for a "Super-Bat" model of Nightwing. The Slum is full of street type problems like gangs, drugs, smuggling, etc., but those things are all amplified by the superhuman runoff of Metropolis; the gangs have high-end military grade weapons, the smugglers are trafficking in metahumans, the drugs turn you into ten foot tall monsters........If you want Nightwing to still be street level but want him doing stuff that isn't completely overlapping Bruce's books, this would get you there.

I do like the idea of Nightwing traveling and not being tied to one single city, but I wouldn't complain if he decided to call Suicide Slum his home.

Honestly what I think would be really cool is if Dick had a series of old safehouses that Bruce gave him when he was Robin. The safehouses would be all over the world from Star City to Bludhaven to Paris, etc. It would be a constant that would be familiar all the while being able to travel the world. The safe houses wouldn't need the typical maintenance like bills and the like so money wouldn't be an issue. I would also throw in an Oracle/Alfred type character that would be support on the side. Also maybe bring in Artemis or Helena who is working their own case that Dick would fall into. Then they could do a meta-human trafficking storyline that kinda follows what YJ is doing.

I also agree with the Hal Jordan comparison, reminds me of the Justice Titans.

[Pohzee]

The Titans TV show has already explicitly said in 8 episodes what DC Comics has yet to figure out. Dick Grayson can never have a normal life. So stop trying. Maybe that will be the outcome of this Ric fiasco, but that is perhaps the least interesting or introspective way of handling it.

I do agree about the similarities between Hal Jordan and Dick Grayson. I remember reading quotes from Grant Morrison's interviews for The Green Lantern and thinking that those blurbs applied pretty well to Dick. Not the old-school alpha male or space cop stuff obviously, but the constant changing of professions not due to incompetence or a lack of work ethic, but because of a conflicting set of higher priorities and obligations. I would love a scene like the one in the first issue of The Green Lantern but with Dick.