Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[oasis1313]

Getting into the League might be the boost that kills him. Unless he replaces Bruce, Dick might actually be safer as a Titan. That's a team DC won't let die, no matter how many times they screw it up. And Dick's an essential Titan. But on the League he'd be seen as redundant and possibly expendable.

Can you elaborate a little more? The two new Green Lanterns were created to be a A-listers. Why wouldn't DC let the Titans die? They're working pretty hard on doing just that nowadays.

[Badou]

Well, Godlike isn't exactly wrong; joining the League isn't going to really change all that much. What does League membership do? Helps propel a solo, provides semi-consistent appearances in print, roles in animated shows (both series and films), and might help get you an appearance in a live action film (though so far those results aren't much to brag about). And it provides a small degree of protection; if you're a League staple your status quo probably won't be screwed with too badly, or for too long. A year's worth of shock value where the hero dies or turns evil or gets new powers, then back to normal. By comic standards that's stable.

Dick already has all of that, except for the protection element (Ric hasn't lasted more than a year yet I dont think, there's hope still). In a way, outside of bragging rights League membership is largely a sideways promotion. But it's the League, and those bragging rights can carry some serious weight if you manage to become a mainstay. But at the same time, membership hasn't really done much for J'onn or Vic or many of the Satellite era, so Dick joining the League isn't guarantee anything, especially with Bruce already there.

I say this; put Dick on the League with the current "Big 9" squad (Big 7 + Vic + Kendra). Get people thinking of Nightwing as a "real" Leaguer. Now think what will happen when a big Event demands a sacrifice? Who, on this "Big 10" roster, will DC decide to kill?

Getting into the League might be the boost that kills him. Unless he replaces Bruce, Dick might actually be safer as a Titan. That's a team DC won't let die, no matter how many times they screw it up. And Dick's an essential Titan. But on the League he'd be seen as redundant and possibly expendable.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Dick and the Titans have already been made the sacrifice multiple times. He was the token sacrifice in Forever Evil, the token sacrifice in King's Batman run, sacrificed and made irrelevant in No Justice. The whole Titans since reforming have been abused, constantly undermined, looked down on, forced to disband by the JL, killed off to promote the JL character's story, and constantly put in a position below the JL where Dick and the rest are waiting for the JL to given them direction and purpose defeating the idea of them being a independent team. They were even forced to move into the JL Headquarters to be watched over by the JL while having no input or say in the JL's actions. It's pathetic.

DC deciding to kill Dick off will have zero to do with him being in the JL or not. That will not factor in at all. Him not being in the JL hasn't protected him from being the punching bag of DC since the New 52.

And I never understand the Vic argument. What is the argument that Vic in the League hasn't been better for him than him with the Titans? Sure it wasn't this massive leap but he is still far better off in the League than Beast Boy or Raven have been in the Titans. I never really understand when people use Cyborg as an example of why it isn't good to join the League when I see the complete opposite with him. He has been far more involved in the DCU than he has ever been before and no Cyborg fan would ever want him to give up where he is and put him back in a position where a Beast Boy is.

[WonderNight]

Can you elaborate a little more? The two new Green Lanterns were created to be a A-listers. Why wouldn't DC let the Titans die? They're working pretty hard on doing just that nowadays.

dc already see's nightwing as redundant. It's the main reason he gets treated like crap, but it's worse now because it's not just batman but the other robins also. At less if he was in the league he can be looked at as a equal and adult and form relationships with characters who can stay out of limbo for more the five mins.

Better a redundant leaguer than a redundant titan.

[Ascended]

Can you elaborate a little more? Why wouldn't DC let the Titans die? They're working pretty hard on doing just that nowadays.

Oh, DC will abuse and use the Titans, yes. They'll treat the characters poorly and never regard the roster or the team as being equal to the League.

But the Titans, and the core roster, will always be around. It's an IP that DC refuses to put away.

I mean, what happens? DC launches a Titans book, and they do it wrong. So they change the creative team around, maybe screw with the roster a little (while still orbiting the core members), and eventually cancel the book because it's awful and no one reads it. Then they relaunch the title and the cycle begins anew.

DC doesn't do the Titans any favors, but they're not pulling the team off the shelves either. And they wont. It's too important an IP for them to ignore.

Bear in mind, I never said Dick was in a good place as a Titan, only that its a team DC refuses to stop publishing (for any length of time). If we're weighing the pro's and con's of League membership and we're looking at "does this team ensure the hero sees print" then the League actually only offers minimal advantage over the Titans. Both books see print on a regular basis, though the Titans see more breaks between series. So the only "extra" panel time Dick would get would be during those lapses between Titans runs.

I'm not saying I want Dick as a Titan. I think the NTT/Fab5 are played out and would rather see the characters move on. But the extra spotlight the League offers? Nightwing already sees a lot of similar attention.

Does that make any sense? I'm not talking quality, just panel time.

[Ascended]

And I never understand the Vic argument. What is the argument that Vic in the League hasn't been better for him than him with the Titans?

You misunderstand me; I don't want Vic out of the League. I love that he's there. But it hasn't done all that much to raise his profile. It *has* raised his profile a little bit, but not really all that much.

He's had a couple chances at a solo, but none of them caught on and Vic's League membership hasn't inspired DC to try pushing him harder. So that feels like a zero sum gain. League membership opened the door for a solo but couldn't keep it open. In the end, we've made no real gain.

He got to show up in the JL movie (where he was a highlight; Fisher did a good job) but where's that solo film? Nowhere. So he got to appear in a movie people hated. Not much of a win, really.

Vic's shown up in the League's animated cartoons......just like he shows up in TTGO! and Young Justice. And he's in Doom Patrol now, which spun out of the Titans show. So minor gains here, yes, but not much.

He's showing up in one of DC's most popular books.....but the people reading those books already knew who Cyborg was. So no major popularity gains here.

Joining the League was good for Vic (those bragging rights I mentioned) and I very much want him to stay there (though I do wish he had his Titans history returned to his backstory). But it didn't make him an A-lister. It didn't stop DC from misusing him. It didn't get him a consistent push as a solo act. In the end, all Vic actually gained from being in the League is a handful of extra cartoon appearances and the ability to say he's on a team with the big guns.....even though he's not treated as one himself.

League membership does not mean DC is going to treat the character well. Nor does it mean that the character is going to become a bigger deal. Most of the benefits (appearances in media, etc) Nightwing already enjoys.

Bottom line; the League won't save Nightwing and will do little to make him more popular. If DC did it; great. I love the bragging rights of being able to say "my man is in the JLA!" but is it going to actually have any real measurable impact on Dick? No, probably not. He's already got a solo, cartoon appearances, video game appearances, etc. Most (not all, but most) of the doors the League opens for a character are doors that Dick walked through years ago.

[Godlike13]

DC is so bipolar with the Titans. There is such a disconnect between what they are doing with them in comics and out of comics.

[oasis1313]

DC is so bipolar with the Titans. There is such a disconnect between what they are doing with them in comics and out of comics.

Such an incredible difference. I was totally prepared to hate the Titans show and ended up really liking it. That DC management purposefully chooses not to capitalize on the opportunity should make the Warners look down from Mount Olympus and send down some lightning bolts.

[Badou]

You misunderstand me; I don't want Vic out of the League. I love that he's there. But it hasn't done all that much to raise his profile. It *has* raised his profile a little bit, but not really all that much.

He's had a couple chances at a solo, but none of them caught on and Vic's League membership hasn't inspired DC to try pushing him harder. So that feels like a zero sum gain. League membership opened the door for a solo but couldn't keep it open. In the end, we've made no real gain.

He got to show up in the JL movie (where he was a highlight; Fisher did a good job) but where's that solo film? Nowhere. So he got to appear in a movie people hated. Not much of a win, really.

Vic's shown up in the League's animated cartoons......just like he shows up in TTGO! and Young Justice. And he's in Doom Patrol now, which spun out of the Titans show. So minor gains here, yes, but not much.

He's showing up in one of DC's most popular books.....but the people reading those books already knew who Cyborg was. So no major popularity gains here.

Joining the League was good for Vic (those bragging rights I mentioned) and I very much want him to stay there (though I do wish he had his Titans history returned to his backstory). But it didn't make him an A-lister. It didn't stop DC from misusing him. It didn't get him a consistent push as a solo act. In the end, all Vic actually gained from being in the League is a handful of extra cartoon appearances and the ability to say he's on a team with the big guns.....even though he's not treated as one himself.

League membership does not mean DC is going to treat the character well. Nor does it mean that the character is going to become a bigger deal. Most of the benefits (appearances in media, etc) Nightwing already enjoys.

Bottom line; the League won't save Nightwing and will do little to make him more popular. If DC did it; great. I love the bragging rights of being able to say "my man is in the JLA!" but is it going to actually have any real measurable impact on Dick? No, probably not. He's already got a solo, cartoon appearances, video game appearances, etc. Most (not all, but most) of the doors the League opens for a character are doors that Dick walked through years ago.

Again, that whole argument doesn't make any sense to me. The idea that because Cyborg didn't become an A-list character or that he can't hold an ongoing series that him in the JL has been a failure or a zero gain for him. It is nearly impossible to create new A-List characters or have characters maintain ongoing solo books. It is really difficult, but what is the alternative to what they did? That he stayed in the Titans and is regulated to what Beast Boy has become? That he never got solo ongoing opportunities or never got used in these bigger JL stories? If you put the two options side by side Cyborg in the JL wins by a landslide. From all the bigger opportunities he has gotten in the comics to all the ones he has gotten outside of it. There is no comparison. He is better off in every category to a Beast Boy that would be where Cyborg is if none of this happened to him. Even if you are upset that Cyborg's history with the Titans is gone/changed characters who are in the Titans have completely destroyed history as well. So it isn't like he would be safe from a mangled history if he had stayed a Titan only.

And a lot of your argument is based on how joining the JL will impact characters in other media. I think that is the wrong way to look at it, especially for Dick's character. I kind of don't care about what joining the JL does for Dick in other media. I don't expect anything from it. It is about what it does for him in the comics.

When you look at where the character is and how he is being used now what is the downside to Dick joining the JL in the comics? I can't think of any. From Abnett's Titans to the awful Ric story Dick is in what I'd say is the worst period in his character's history. So it isn't like the character is safe if he isn't in the JL. To me him not being a JL member makes him MORE of a target to be undermined as we have seen all through Abnett's Titans.

I just don't see the downside. He has his own solo book so it isn't like he is fighting for panel time. He already gets treated like crap and gets abused constantly in bigger stories (possibly more than any other DC character) for a Batman's sake so it isn't like him joining the JL will suddenly cause that to start happening. And it isn't like him being in the JL would prevent him from being in other books or even other teams given how often JL members get put elsewhere at the same time. So I just don't see any downside. Sure joining is a massive notch in his belt and that is great! Sign me up for that. The way DC has structured the DCU the JL team is now the line heroes are judged by. If Dick joins then he can't be looked down on for not being a JL member anymore and that is kind of all I care about. I'm just sick of Dick not being a JL member in the comics being used against him and if that is all Dick gains from the whole thing then I'd count it as a massive win.

[oasis1313]

Worse, Vic is just there as a token, which is an insult to a black character. I could see different Justice League teams with different missions, but they shouldn't have to answer to the big boys and girls like they were amateurs.

[Godlike13]

The JL being a pinnacle for Dick represents, and would reinforce, everything that was wrong with Abnett’s Titans. Dick’s goal should not be to be part of the next JL, but to create the next JL. That’s what Abnett fundamentally misunderstood about Dick and Nightwing (or maybe not and it’s more he just didn’t give a **** and created his damaging narrative regardless).
Even when it comes to just in comics the JL is a double edge sword for Dick. While maybe yes it would stop Dick being look down on for not being in the JL, it would also continue to perpetuate the idea of him being Batman Jr. following in Batman’s footsteps.

[Aahz]

And it provides a small degree of protection; if you're a League staple your status quo probably won't be screwed with too badly, or for too long.

I don't think that the League really provides much prtection. The big six are that protected, because they are DCs most iconic characters. DC wouldn't really screew much more with them without the League membership.

And changes of Dick's status quo usually also don't last that long. I doubt that Ric will last much longer than a year (two years at the very most).

[Badou]

The JL being a pinnacle for Dick represents, and would reinforce, everything that was wrong with Abnett’s Titans. Dick’s goal should not be to be part of the next JL, but to create the next JL. That’s what Abnett fundamentally misunderstood about Dick and Nightwing (or maybe not and it’s more he just didn’t give a **** and created his damaging narrative regardless).
Even when it comes to just in comics the JL is a double edge sword for Dick. While maybe yes it would stop Dick being look down on for not being in the JL, it would also continue to perpetuate the idea of him being Batman Jr. following in Batman’s footsteps.

But whether he is in the JL or not he will still get the Batman Jr label. You could say him being in Bludhaven trying to do to it what Batman did for Gotham is more Batman Jr and following in his footsteps too. Or ideas like "Dick needs his own Joker", "Dick needs his own Catwoman", "Dick needs his own sidekick" add to it too. I don't think him being in the JL or not will increase or decrease those labels at all because he already gets them at every turn anyways without even being in the JL.

And here is the thing. That "next JL" is never going to happen. There will never be another team created that will overtake a JL team with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman on it. The era of a NTT team coming and outselling the JL book like in the 80s will never happen again with how comics are now. Any major progress a character, especially a legacy one, makes will get undone to keep those top tier characters in their position lording over all of DC and dictating how the stories unfold. Dick's whole character has been about progression and the one place he is unable to progress to is to join the JL and be on equal footing with a Batman, Superman, Flash and so on. It causes him to be stuck in this weird limbo of not being looked at as the same as DC's top heroes but too old to be treated as a proper young character.

If a Wally joins the JL are people saying he is just following in Barry's footsteps or when other GLs join the JL they are following in Hal's? Why is it that just Dick gets beat up for it? I feel like Wally fans would jump at the chance to join the JL again even with Barry there as Flash still. If Dick was on the JL then Abnett's whole Titans run makes sense because folding the Titans into the JL headquarters and having Dick run the team out of the JL while being on the JL makes DC's decision of doing all that actually work. Doing what they did but having none of the Titans have any say or weight in the JL made it look like they were moving back into mom and dad's house.

[Godlike13]

And Dick will still get looked down on whether he’s in the JL or not. Being in the JL isn’t actually that big of an accomplishment or feat, and even within the JL there is still a hierarchy. You have the trinity, then the 7, and then everyone else who has come and gone. Where do you think Dick would fall under.

It doesn’t matter if it actually overtakes the JL or not, that’s not really the point. The point is to have Dick be striving to create his own things and path. Cause at the end of the day Bruce, Diana, and Clark aren’t going anywhere and the only actual progression for Dick will come from nonlinear progression. Like Nightwing for example. Dick joining Bruce’s team does nothing, not really, he’s done it before and it did what. Its a futile linear, safe, predictable move that provides nothing Dick doesn’t already have besides some superficial status and a false sense of protection. The goal should not be for Dick to be looked at as the same. They don’t need more of the same, and Dick doesn’t need to be seen as more of the same. Better to be someplace he can be a star, and not someplace he’d be just a footnote. And if that means he needs to move on from the Titans cause some writers don’t understand what he is to that franchise, or do and still just want to exploit that while they undermine it, then he needs to move on. But that doesn’t mean it should be to the JL, where that’s gonna do even less for him than the Titans in the grand scheme of things.

Because Dick became Nightwing. Which spared him from Wally’s fate, and doesn’t create a war within a fan base like we see with the Lanterns. Wally fans shouldn’t jump at the chance for him to join the JL with Barry, because I would hope they have learned what that kind of stuff that will lead to. If Wally is going to coexist with Barry he needs to start being more different and not tread the same ground. If not it’s only Wally that will continue to pay the price. And Abnett’s run shouldn’t ever make sense. His whole thinking when it comes to the Titans is fundamentally flawed and nothing but detrimental to that franchise.

[Agent Z]

And it provides a small degree of protection; if you're a League staple your status quo probably won't be screwed with too badly, or for too long.

I don't know. Being on the League didn't save Cyborg from having his solo cancelled or said solo being screwed with repeatedly back when it was going on. Hell, even Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter haven't really been protected from majorly bad decisions by their League status to the point they need constant reboots and retcons to be seen as salvageable.

[bearman]

I would still like to see Nightwing as a leaguer. He needs to replace Bruce, who spends his time landing n how to take down his partners. Coupled with his miserable, controlling personal nality, he is the worst teammate ever.
Dick would be a breath of fresh air, and he’s known most of the Leaguers since he was a little boy.