Pitch a Direction: Nightwing

[Restingvoice]

The thing about the Court is that their modus operandi is to control Gotham from behind the scene. They're not fighting types, and even the Talons are supposed to kill in secrets. They're more about politics and keeping in power.

So unless they're gonna start telling a story about politic and how that affect the lives and people of Gotham, they're gonna be shown as failures, because the moment the Talons are out and the heroes find out about it, they'll fail as per action hero story law, especially since the Bat fam know where their hideouts are and have their names.

Actually, while the Batfam knows their hideout and names, The Court also know the Batfam hideout and their names. I'm sure the Court keeps the Batfam secret to themselves because they find them useful in reining in the criminal elements. They are rich people who want to keep ruling after all.

A story about The Court should be a detective or intrigue story, not action. The action should only happen in the climax once the plot is discovered. Kinda like the very first Court of Owls story by Snyder.

The only thing the Bat fam don't have against them are good lawyers since these are rich people who will go out of prison fast because of Gotham's corrupt system.

We need to be shown how exactly The Court control Gotham if we're to take them seriously as a threat instead of quirky billionaires. They need to be overseer or mastermind, but the way they operate that can mean multi-story arc, or even a whole run, not just one.

[Godlike13]

Yes, but with the full Talon treatment they have to figure out a way to bring Dick back from the cryo-undead state

It shouldn’t be an easy fix. It would better sell it and make it a bigger challenge.

[Wakeneuron]

My pitch will be based on the fact that Nightwing will never ever become Batman and that he will always be in his shadow but he can transform that shadow into something positive and productive for his own legacy. Just like Moses came after and was in the shadow of Yahweh, Nightwing is in the shadow of Batman. But Moses has his own distinct era just as Jesus do as he also begat Moses.

My Nightwing pitch will have him going up against protege's of Batman greatest villains such as the Joker, Two-Face, Bane and the Scarecrow. It will be meta and the villainous protege's struggle to live up to their mentor will mirror Nightwing and how he have to live in the shadow of Batman. Each arc will be 6 issues. The first issue of each protege appearance will be marked up to a higher price around $10.00. First appearances has always been a collectors item. By marking the price up will be a good way for DC to make extra profits. It will be a Black Label book with the emphasis that it's a piece of art that will increase in value and not just a comic book.

Also. I have noticed that the solicitations in the monthly previews are not very good at selling new series so I will hire a hype man to hype up the solicitation copy and hopefully it will result in increase says.

Bludhaven will become a vacation/tourist destination- the first metropolitan circus. Buildings will be reconstructed with trapeze equipment that will allow Nightwing to navigate through the city easily.

[dropkickjake]

Been a few months since anyone posted here.....but I miss this thread and was wondering if anyone had any new ideas?

Pohzee's "bad breakup with Bludhaven" idea is a lot of fun, and in considering how Dick finds replacements to "take his job" I immediately thought of the fake Nightwings in the current book. If Dick is going to leave Bludhaven he could take those four idiots and train them, turn them into a functioning unit that's actually capable of protecting the city without him. I mean, in this scenario we're unlikely to see Bludhaven again so there's not much worry of the fakewings showing up a lot right? They'd just be out in Bludhaven, off panel and out of mind, but doing something worthwhile.

On a quasi-but-not-really related note, going back to the idea dropkick and I have tossed around about Dick running Haly's Casino and the idea of Dick being a super spy while also "pretending" to *just* be Bludhaven's protector (the triple ID idea I had ages ago).....the fake Nightwings would work really well there too. I know everyone is anxious to forget them as soon as possible, but if Dick were running around the globe doing super cool spy stuff while maintaining the act of just being another hero with a city to protect.....well, the fakewings would work really well for that. Put them all in matching Nightwing suits with some Spyral hypnos tech to disguise their features and they'd be a viable "neighborhood watch" for Bludhaven while Dick's away, and no one realizes that the real Nightwing is out of town most of the time. They might not be capable of dealing with a major threat but they could handle the drug dealers and other run-of-the-mill criminals while Dick's doing the spy thing.

Might even be fun to make sure the fakewings are not in on the real secret; they have no idea Nightwing is gone half the time, no idea he's a part of Spyral (or whatever spy group we end up with after Bendis' Leviathan), they just think they're his support team, his Robins. And of course, should the secret ever get out you've got a great source for some fun drama and stories.

Having the Fakewings be his support squad while Dick is out super-spying isn't an inherently awful idea, but I'd hate for there to be any lingering vestiges of this horrible direction. I'd prefer there to be new characters slotting into those roles. (specifically, I still love the idea of Talon [new character] and Flamebird [Lor Zod]).

I'm torn about the Court of Owls and what they mean to Dick, but not for the reasons most seem to be. Of course I think they would be more compelling if they were introduced for DickBats as they were supposed to be. But he still heavily featured in the actual story and I still enjoyed his enrollment in that. Despite its connection to Batman, I still think he was integral enough to the original story that it doesn't feel as though he is poaching from Batman's rogues a la Two Face. Its even better than Blockbuster in that regard really.

But where I am torn is really on the fundamental changes to the origins of the character. Like yeah the Court was cool and have a cool aesthetic. There's even the Owl/Nightwing connection that King brought up in Robin war that's neat. I got more seriously into comics monthly for the first time with the CoO and so I thought that the whole Nightwing thing was awesome. But over time, I've become really sick of the Snyder/Tynion trope of retconning villains into heroes pasts. Most notably, I think that their changes to Batwoman have completely ruined her character by destroying her origins and independence. And its kinda the same deal for Nightwing. Having this dark force in his past really casts his life in an entirely different light. His escape from the Court overshadows his happy circus life that was taken from him and shifts his story from overcoming tragedy to escaping it.

And I know this will sound wild to people on here who like to play up Dick's swashbuckling attitude, but it also kinda ruins his relatability. Dick was created as a surrogate for a younger audience to relate to, and as I kid growing up, I definitely did. And I thinking that removing this relatability for this massive coincidence and conspiracy that makes his history hyper-connected really takes away more than it adds to his time as Robin.

I definitely feel you on this, particularly the point about the Court making Dick's time in the circus more sinister than happy. I do think there is a win to be had here, though it would need to be finagled a little bit. I think that the Court originally grooming Dick, but Mr. Haly taking a stand and cut ties with the court could be the best of both worlds. It puts the court into Dick's back story while still preserving his happy upbringing. It even gives a little bit of character building to Haly.

[Ascended]

I'm torn about the Court of Owls and what they mean to Dick, but not for the reasons most seem to be.

But where I am torn is really on the fundamental changes to the origins of the character. Like yeah the Court was cool and have a cool aesthetic. There's even the Owl/Nightwing connection that King brought up in Robin war that's neat. I got more seriously into comics monthly for the first time with the CoO and so I thought that the whole Nightwing thing was awesome. But over time, I've become really sick of the Snyder/Tynion trope of retconning villains into heroes pasts. Most notably, I think that their changes to Batwoman have completely ruined her character by destroying her origins and independence. And its kinda the same deal for Nightwing. Having this dark force in his past really casts his life in an entirely different light. His escape from the Court overshadows his happy circus life that was taken from him and shifts his story from overcoming tragedy to escaping it.

I took issue with that too, and the shadow it casts over Dick's early days with the circus. And I'm still not fond of the idea that Dick was some sort of prophesied golden child. But I've come to think that this doesn't really change Dick's childhood. There were things happening in the circus that he didn't know about, which is pretty apt for childhood, but it doesn't mean his time there was any different. His childhood experiences don't change, and it seems natural that there *would* be shady dealings in a circus. I mean, not to throw shade at circuses but they're kinda sketchy at the best of times, and one that travels through Gotham on a regular basis? Yeah, old man Haly had to cut some questionable deals just to perform there......

The whole "Talon legacy" thing.....that's something I can ignore because I think the Court adds more to Dick's mythos than it reduces/changes/redacts.

[Ascended]

Having the Fakewings be his support squad while Dick is out super-spying isn't an inherently awful idea, but I'd hate for there to be any lingering vestiges of this horrible direction. I'd prefer there to be new characters slotting into those roles. (specifically, I still love the idea of Talon [new character] and Flamebird [Lor Zod]).

Yeah, Ric is definitely leaving a bad taste in the mouth. Weirdly, I'm sorta half-determined to take these horrible ideas and questionable execution, and make something viable out of them. I dunno, I guess I want to erase the bad taste by making the characters/concepts suck less. Plus, it's a fun challenge to try and take crap like this and turn it into something that isn't horrible.

And other characters could fit the bill, ones who fans don't (rightfully) hate with such a burning passion, but if we're talking about people who's only job is to pretend to be Nightwing and stop muggers......that's not a role I want filled by anybody who matters, yknow? In my head, they're not even a "support squad" so much as just body doubles. They're just there so "Nightwing's" presence is still felt in Bludhaven and people don't realize the hero is gone most of the time. They're not there fighting Blockbuster or lending Dick a hand in a investigation....they're a neighborhood watch; when something interesting happens they call the real heroes, and Dick shows up with the Flamebirds and Talons and whomever.

I'm down with Dick having a support squad of lesser partners/legacies/sidekicks (you know it! We've discussed that stuff a ton!) but I'm thinking of the fakewings being much lower (and less important) on the totem pole. Not even really "heroes" in the same way a Flamebird or (not evil) Talon would be. They wouldn't even show up for big events the way a sidekick would. Just some people who dress like Nightwing to ensure the "Nightwing; protector of Bludhaven" secret identity remains intact.

[Godlike13]

Multiple characters running around as Nightwing just dilutes the brand, especially meaningless nobodies. That just anyone can throw on a Nightwing suit is a damaging idea to Dick. Unfortunately the current editors and writers on the book could care less about that cause they don't actually give a **** about the character or brand, and don't care enough to actually think about things like that. One of the reasons you probably don't give an out of touch bottom of the charts writer, with no real investment on the character, the power to influence the character like they did with Lobdell. Whats more these fake Nightwings weren't designed to support him, its Ric that has been designed to support them. Remember they allow him to be their sidekick the Cabbie and what have you, LoL. The best thing they can do for Dick is die horribly to show that anyone can't just throw on his clothes and do what he does.

[Ascended]

Whats more these fake Nightwings weren't designed to support him, its Ric that has been designed to support them. Remember they allow him to be their sidekick the Cabbie and what have you, LoL. The best thing they can do for Dick is die horribly to show that anyone can't just throw on his clothes and do what he does.

As I've said, half the fun I'm having with this is changing these ideas around to make them suck less.

It just seems like a very "spy" thing for Dick to have "body doubles" ensuring no one thinks he's doing anything more than protecting his city. Again, this is just in conjunction with the "triple identity/spy" idea a few of us have tossed around. Dick would "just" be another hero protecting his city as far as the heroic community is concerned, but is actually a spy going on all manner of crazy adventures around the world and beyond. But he's gotta make people think Nightwing is still active in Bludhaven when he's gone, hence the body doubles who just handle the small-time stuff, just enough to be visible and make people think Dick's almost always in the Blud.

And I cannot stress enough, I'm not advocating making these guys important. They'd be taking down muggers and drug dealers (which cops are more than capable of doing, so these guys qualify) in service of Dick. They wouldn't even really get panel time. I don't see that diminishing his brand. Not like these fakewings are going to be showing up for major Events or fighting actual rogues. They're not heroes, they're distractions.

But I get why people wouldn't want to see them at all in any capacity. Ric has, like I said, left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

[Blue22]

Honestly, after the way the family has kinda just...stopped caring about him with this whole Ric issue, I wouldn't mind if, after he's fixed, he doesn't...immediately return to them.

Alfred's gone. Barbara gave up on him. Bruce, Jason, Tim, and even Damian never saw him or used any of their resources to help him (as far as I know). So he figures "Okay. Since, clearly, nobody wanted me back, maybe I won't come back." Make Dick, who's usually the glue that holds the family together, the estranged one for once. Make a whole arc out of it, with everyone individually showing up in his solo and reconnecting with him.

Even before Ric, it had been a while since we really had any good moments between him and anyone else other than Barbara and (in one case) Damian. So if/when he finally comes back, I wanna see some exploration of the unique relationships he has with each of them. And what better way to do that than for them to have to re-establish those bonds?

[Arsenal]

Between nobody seemingly noticing that Tim just vanished into the multiverse & with Jason being on the outs with Bruce, it isn’t really clear if either of them are even aware that something happened to Dick at all. The only one without some built in in-universe excuse (and probably the most noticeable absence of the family) is Damian. And it would be weird to highlight and focus on how his family didn’t visit him without bringing up the Titans but I don’t think one arc would be enough to do all those relationships Justice.

[Pohzee]

Between nobody seemingly noticing that Tim just vanished into the multiverse & with Jason being on the outs with Bruce, it isn’t really clear if either of them are even aware that something happened to Dick at all. The only one without some built in in-universe excuse (and probably the most noticeable absence of the family) is Damian. And it would be weird to highlight and focus on how his family didn’t visit him without bringing up the Titans but I don’t think one arc would be enough to do all those relationships Justice.

They are aware. See the issue where Batman punched Tim.

[Arsenal]

They are aware. See the issue where Batman punched Tim.

Oh right... I completely forgot about that.

[Godlike13]

Honestly, after the way the family has kinda just...stopped caring about him with this whole Ric issue, I wouldn't mind if, after he's fixed, he doesn't...immediately return to them.

Alfred's gone. Barbara gave up on him. Bruce, Jason, Tim, and even Damian never saw him or used any of their resources to help him (as far as I know). So he figures "Okay. Since, clearly, nobody wanted me back, maybe I won't come back." Make Dick, who's usually the glue that holds the family together, the estranged one for once. Make a whole arc out of it, with everyone individually showing up in his solo and reconnecting with him.

Even before Ric, it had been a while since we really had any good moments between him and anyone else other than Barbara and (in one case) Damian. So if/when he finally comes back, I wanna see some exploration of the unique relationships he has with each of them. And what better way to do that than for them to have to re-establish those bonds?

Babs didn’t give up on him, she got Lobdell’ed and fell victim to his **** writing. She helped Ric with his recovery and Ric was nothing but an ass to her, and yet somehow she ends up apologizing to him. Cause again, Lobdell. When Dick comes back he needs to apologize to her.

[Pohzee]

I don't blame Batgirl for giving up on Ric... I did too!

[Restingvoice]

It's not just they stopped helping him, he doesn't wanna have anything to do with them. You can't help someone who doesn't wanna be helped. What are they gonna do? Shoot him with a memory bullet?

Also, the way to convince Damian to leave Ric alone would be the same way Alfred managed to convince him to leave Bruce alone when he's amnesia. "He was in danger but now he's free. Let him be happy"

Of course, this should happen before he got involved in more danger...