Frieza & Army vs. The Avengers

[sunofdarkchild]

Guildo could be a serious problem for the Avengers. His time-stop might only be good for running away, but he can bind multiple people who are much stronger than him and leave them sitting ducks for Ginyu or Frieza to destroy.

Frieza also has a lot of moves beyond throwing punches and energy beams. He can telechenetically throw mountains and has that bubble he traps people in that explodes on instinct with anything.

[big_adventure]

I mean, Final Form Frieza at 50% is at least 8 times stronger than a trivial, casual planet buster. That makes him strong enough to kill everyone here, and he does it with giant bubble attacks that are most definitely as big as the arena. If he gets a chance to go (which I think he'll get if speed isn't equalized) he should be able to one-shot this, and anyone not dead is at least going to be reeling enough for him to keep up the hits. He'll also kill all of his own team, but Frieza don't care about none of that.

[The Dork Knight]

And when exactly did I suggest that? I said directly that a vastly weaker Nova than Rich restrained a Strontian for a time.

That's the whole point though. Robbie wasn't "vastly weaker than Rich" going by Rich's own performance

I didn't say it was a cakewalk. I didn't say it was trivial. I didn't say it did anything other than delay things. I didn't say it's happened any other time in all the violent meetings between Strontians and Novas (wait, that's like... 2... in combat).

Then what is the point behind using that performance at all? Your claim's importance as a feat rests on a weaker Nova stalemating a Strontian. It becomes kind if meaningless when you then yourself say it isn't indicative of anything

But in any case it wasn't a stalemate so much as Robbie basically not dying. And then for your claim to be the impressive one you're claiming it to be, Nova Prime, who shows up on the scene shortly after must be much better than the rookie who has so much less of the Nova force with him. Unfortunately he isnt

And oh, during those couple of issues they interacted with Strontians, there were a few other confrontations as well. They basically got stomped, Richard being the only one pulling off a win (via weakness exploitation)

"Nothing" was the bragging enemy in the fight. It wasn't an impartial analysis. We don't give a lot of truck to those kinds of statements here. Think of how often Lex Luthor has yelled "you're nothing" or similar tripe at Superman. Or any number of villains have done the same to any number of heroes. We don't trust the villain yelling such things at the hero as a feat. The feat, from that arc, is Xenith killing some fools, Robbie Rider restraining Xenith while Rich came with help. Rich engages Xenith, some of which is off panel or in the background, then Xenith boasts, and hits Rich, knocking him back, but otherwise doing all of zero damage, and in fact, during that, Rich has the time and the focus to go ahead and study up on Strontians to make sure he knows the easy way to take her out. Rich lets her get close, then takes the time to explain how he's going to drop her, and does so. Yup, he stuns her with the Headbutt Psychic, and then he KOs her with one shot while she's stunned.

Except Richard himself basically agrees with her assessment and goes on about invulnerability and such and resorts to weakness exploitation despite y'know starting the fight mad as hell trying to put her down for (as he believed) killing his brother

If you want to take those scans totally 100% at face value, they also argue AGAINST the sometimes presented trope here that some Strontians are vastly more powerful than others. Because that scan indicates that the Novapedia says that ALL Strontians are invulerable and all-powerful: à la Kryptonians.

No, that's just their power set. It doesn't make them "equally" powerful anymore than having the same "super strength" makes supergirl equally as strong as superman.

The Nova pedia even says that their strength is "reinforced" rather than derived from their psionic ability. Gladiator can still "reinforce" better than others while still having the same physical toughness (also noted in the Nova pedia)

Sure, because it was a REALLY smart use of his Nova toolkit. Robbie is a smart, clever, creative dude who is given a bunch of powers and he uses them brilliantly there. Could he have BEATEN Xenith? Highly doubtful. But he stopped her from killing lots and lots of other people, including himself.

No he could not have done any more than he did, just from the comic. In fact Richard probably couldn't have done much more either judging by the dialogue and the fact that Kallark one shotted the replacement Nova Prime a couple of issues prior

And as I said above, Gladiator, in a Rumble, would kill Richie as Nova Prime. He's VASTLY faster and hits definitely hard enough to do damage. Gladiator, written at his best, is a ridiculous monster. Of course, Gladiator himself has been stomped by both Canonball and Gambit, which is why on Rumbles, we try to identify the consistent, high-end level and roll with that. As you well know.

I'm not even talking about speed and Rumbles and all though. Just from the way those interactions with Strontians are written, the Nova corps were literally out matched ("outclassed by the Imperial Guard" actual quote from the arc by a Nova corps man) including the Centurion getting one shotted by Gladiator

So to use an example of a rookie (barely) holding out against one is no indication of an average Nova Corps man's abilities and is later even remarked upon by Richard as very impressive. Simply in terms of sheer power levels, Nova Prime was coming off worse against a Strontian so to use the (outlier) instance of a talented rookie not dying as indicative of something like "even a rookie and hold back a Strontian, see what Prime can do!" is not a very good argument, if for nothing else we saw exactly how Prime(s) fared in a straight up contest of power against Strontians in that very arc

[The Dork Knight]

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not as though this was costing Annihilus the fight until the bands got yanked off him. He was winning so hard Rich was about to die. As comic book fights go, I've seen worse PIS type things.

But he killed Quasar without the bands is the thing. I mean he literally absorbed the energy of THE energy absorber in Marvel. Then he starts absorbing Nova Prime as well

One could argue I suppose that with the experience gained in the war since Nova could form some sort of defence against that, though again the world mind didn't seem to think there was anything but energy absorption in a close up fight and in any case even if Nova became good he wasn't THAT good that he could not even have an issue with something Quasar got drained by but to not bring up the ability at all..... it wasn't like Annihilus won the first fight or killed quasar by blasting or punching them. Yet this is what he resorts to vs nova

It's not the WORST thing but ehh I guess what I'm saying is I don't agree with the idea of Nova Prime being vastly above Quasar and Strontians, especially when you have stuff like Annihilus forgetting his winning move vs Quasar

[Pendaran]

But he killed Quasar without the bands is the thing. I mean he literally absorbed the energy of THE energy absorber in Marvel. Then he starts absorbing Nova Prime as well

One could argue I suppose that with the experience gained in the war since Nova could form some sort of defence against that, though again the world mind didn't seem to think there was anything but energy absorption in a close up fight and in any case even if Nova became good he wasn't THAT good that he could not even have an issue with something Quasar got drained by but to not bring up the ability at all..... it wasn't like Annihilus won the first fight or killed quasar by blasting or punching them. Yet this is what he resorts to vs nova

It's not the WORST thing but ehh I guess what I'm saying is I don't agree with the idea of Nova Prime being vastly above Quasar and Strontians, especially when you have stuff like Annihilus forgetting his winning move vs Quasar

When in my posts did I say I felt Nova Prime was vastly above Quasar and Strontians when I'm saying he won that fight due to a variety of conditions beyond his control anyway, topped off by exploiting a weak point that was possible because of them? ;p

You're confusing me with the fellow you're arguing with. I'm just saying that fight was basically fine for how it went.

[big_adventure]

But he killed Quasar without the bands is the thing. I mean he literally absorbed the energy of THE energy absorber in Marvel. Then he starts absorbing Nova Prime as well

One could argue I suppose that with the experience gained in the war since Nova could form some sort of defence against that, though again the world mind didn't seem to think there was anything but energy absorption in a close up fight and in any case even if Nova became good he wasn't THAT good that he could not even have an issue with something Quasar got drained by but to not bring up the ability at all..... it wasn't like Annihilus won the first fight or killed quasar by blasting or punching them. Yet this is what he resorts to vs nova

It's not the WORST thing but ehh I guess what I'm saying is I don't agree with the idea of Nova Prime being vastly above Quasar and Strontians, especially when you have stuff like Annihilus forgetting his winning move vs Quasar

Quick point on this: Worldmind, when stuck inside Rich, is a horrible wimp who constantly wants to run from fights that Nova Prime can absolutely handle, or at least that he should TRY to handle, following the whole "Novas are heroes, heroes risk themselves to save innocents" thing that makes comics, you know, exist. Worldmind does this because Worldmind's prime directive, effectively, is to protect Worldmind.

Second quick point: when did EITHER Pen or I claim that Nova Prime was "vastly above" Quasar and Strontians? I'll wait.

[big_adventure]

That's the whole point though. Robbie wasn't "vastly weaker than Rich" going by Rich's own performance


Then what is the point behind using that performance at all? Your claim's importance as a feat rests on a weaker Nova stalemating a Strontian. It becomes kind if meaningless when you then yourself say it isn't indicative of anything

But in any case it wasn't a stalemate so much as Robbie basically not dying. And then for your claim to be the impressive one you're claiming it to be, Nova Prime, who shows up on the scene shortly after must be much better than the rookie who has so much less of the Nova force with him. Unfortunately he isnt

And oh, during those couple of issues they interacted with Strontians, there were a few other confrontations as well. They basically got stomped, Richard being the only one pulling off a win (via weakness exploitation)



Except Richard himself basically agrees with her assessment and goes on about invulnerability and such and resorts to weakness exploitation despite y'know starting the fight mad as hell trying to put her down for (as he believed) killing his brother


No, that's just their power set. It doesn't make them "equally" powerful anymore than having the same "super strength" makes supergirl equally as strong as superman.

The Nova pedia even says that their strength is "reinforced" rather than derived from their psionic ability. Gladiator can still "reinforce" better than others while still having the same physical toughness (also noted in the Nova pedia)


No he could not have done any more than he did, just from the comic. In fact Richard probably couldn't have done much more either judging by the dialogue and the fact that Kallark one shotted the replacement Nova Prime a couple of issues prior


I'm not even talking about speed and Rumbles and all though. Just from the way those interactions with Strontians are written, the Nova corps were literally out matched ("outclassed by the Imperial Guard" actual quote from the arc by a Nova corps man) including the Centurion getting one shotted by Gladiator

So to use an example of a rookie (barely) holding out against one is no indication of an average Nova Corps man's abilities and is later even remarked upon by Richard as very impressive. Simply in terms of sheer power levels, Nova Prime was coming off worse against a Strontian so to use the (outlier) instance of a talented rookie not dying as indicative of something like "even a rookie and hold back a Strontian, see what Prime can do!" is not a very good argument, if for nothing else we saw exactly how Prime(s) fared in a straight up contest of power against Strontians in that very arc

Again, I didn't claim any of the things you seem to be extrapolating into my statements.

Did a rookie Nova Centurian make brilliant, impressive use of his Nova powers to temporarily immobilize a Strontian? A Strontian who had been feeding on Novas already? Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened. Could said Nova have killed said Strontian? No, nothing supports that, and nobody here claimed it.

Does this indicate that such a technique would be in reach of any Nova Centurion? Well, yes, it does, since Nova Centurions all have the same powerset. Would another Nova have thought to use this? Maybe not: certainly none DID outside of Robbie. Would this have worked if Xenith didn't forget conveniently that she has FTL super speed? No, of course not, because Robbie would have been dead. But that's not the claim. The claim is absolutely not that Robbie can kill a Strontian in a PIS-free environment. It's that a smart Nova can use his or her or its Nova-ness to temporarily, with extreme effort, restrain a Strontian who doesn't want to be restrained.

Did I ever once claim that Nova Prime is stronger than a Strontian? Don't think so, but again, I'll wait. Can Nova Prime BEAT a Strontian that gives him the time to act? Well, yeah, duh, we see it on panel and see exactly how. Would this happen in a Rumble? Nope, and, as far as I can find, only you seem to make that statement, even if you are making it in the negative.

If you want to extrapolate something, here's one:

Robbie, a garden-variety Centurion, can use the (Nova)Force to restrain a Strontian though not do anything else. Wouldn't it track, therefore, that the nearly INFINITELY more powerful and vastly more skilled and experienced Rich could have done the same, and then unloaded a barrage of class 100 level blasts, or opened a wormhole in her head, or whatever, offering another way to end the fight? Or are you claiming that Rich, despite being the explicitly vastly more badass Nova Prime, could not have done this? The writer chose to have Rich end the fight the way he did, but it pretty seriously ignores the capabilities of the Nova force and the character to claim that there was no other way.

And again, this is NOT to claim that Nova Prime would win a Rumble: Strontians are waaaaaaaay too fast, and are definitely strong enough to make even Nova Prime feel their stuff.

[The Arbiter]

INFINITELY more powerful? :P

[big_adventure]

INFINITELY more powerful? :P

The adverb before the adjective is pretty important here. "Nearly" matters. And fine, we can argue about "by how much" but given that Richie as Nova Prime has the whole Nova Force at his disposal, we are at the very least talking about thousands of times more powerful.

Also, there is another point that this brings up: Nova Prime is a title, and an "ordinary" Nova Prime isn't AT ALL the same thing as Rich as Nova Prime. "Regular" Nova Prime is probably somewhat more powerful and certainly more skilled than a regular Centurion. But Richie is a different beast entirely.

Anyway...

[The Dork Knight]

Again, I didn't claim any of the things you seem to be extrapolating into my statements.

No you either claimed exactly those things or you were not making claims at all

To repeat in brief
1. Your first post, to demonstrate the impressiveness of Nova Prime, says he beat an Annihilus amped by various objects who had "beaten Quasar with a gesture and terrified Thanos". You did not make your edit about draining, or talk about removal of the quantum bands or that Richard was hospitalised by the effort till subsequent posts in response to that

You didn't mention any other qualifier for why beating Annihilus was impressive beyond his "trivial" dispatching of Quasar ( ignoring the thanos thing for which we have but statements). Therefore the only qualifier being mentioned here is "sooo much better than Quasar" even after your subsequent ammendments. That's what it amounts to, that's the consequence of your statements. It's a different matter that you don't want to face up it. If you're not saying that, you're basically not saying anything at all and it's not even any sort of feat given now you want to back away from the only qualifiers used in the original post (but not really)

[The Dork Knight]

2. The whole point about a rookie holding back a Strontian would be "look rookies can do that, imagine what Prime could!" but unfortunately by the story itself other rookies were miserably outclassed, one Nova Prime lost outright and the other had to resort to weakness exploitation after talking about his opponents' invulnerability otherwise. Therefore its meaningless to talk about that as a feat for Nova Prime, or even other rookies, since that was something unique for Robbie and I don't even know why you're babbling on about speed and what not when that's not even under discussion

The writer chose to have Rich end the fight the way he did, but it pretty seriously ignores the capabilities of the Nova force and the character to claim that there was no other way.

No it goes just fine with the rest of the story wherein both rookies and Primes were getting otherwise bodied by Strontians for one special rookie to do nothing more than hold off but not hurt at all a Strontian for as long as he maintained his full focus.

It doesn't match your reality of course, but then again you chose the example and now you want to ignore the rest of the story. It boils down to you REAAAALY wanting to say Nova Prime is miles above Strontians when rookies can do that but at the same time as per usual the comic doesn't match your fantasies. I mean you literally admit to the same with stuff like this and don't even seem to realise it

Wouldn't it track, therefore, that the nearly INFINITELY more powerful and vastly more skilled and experienced Rich

It's hard to have a proper discussion when you keep going " Ooh that Big Adventure who said all that is a totally different person I never said that and I'm not trying to say that at all but even the post denying all that I'm just going to say Prime is more powerful than Quasar and Strontians anyway. INFINITELY!"

[The Dork Knight]

Also

Wouldn't it track, therefore, that the nearly INFINITELY more powerful and vastly more skilled and experienced Rich could have done the same,

[Captain Morgan]

Weeeellllp

[The Arbiter]

Weeeellllp

[moonknight11]

That seems pretty decisive. Idk if it actually matters to the real match but...