300 Spartans Get Backup

[Pendaran]

Oh that's cool. Bullseye approves.

He left out the parts of "precision" being that he hit the guy. That he hit the guy in his exposed just fine neck. The guy wearing as he did, armor that left his neck and some area below it exposed. That's not Bullseye. He didn't pull off some mega accuracy shot. The argument that he'd thus do some kind of hyper accurate kill shot on Sauron thereby despite Sauron, even just for the same target area having a helmet going down it, and steel chain and plate where it doesn't, in his generally heavy steel armor requires... ignoring that.


The other argument, that he'll, what, spear off his finger from range? Requires again, armored gauntlet, ignoring that the sword that did so was not normal vs a bronze spear, and the like, and also having shown nowhere the accuracy for that. And Sauron maybe not conveniently sticking his fingers out to be hit for sake of plot.

[k von doom]

To be clear you've now decided in a fight between Sauron and Achilles that there will be a bunch of spears randomly on the ground for him to keep picking up. Also that Achilles never had to block or parry anything or even strike to weapons to deflect them, that some of his moves did not involve reaching out to grab guys. Also you're wanting to ignore details about the sword involved itself.

Please point out which part of the scenario I decided to change. Spartans & Backup vs Persians is going to have a lot of dead bodies, with a lot of unused weapons. Spartans & Backup vs Sauron is going to have a lot of dead bodies with a lot of unused weapons. Or if you prefer a clean floor, the Spartans hand their spears to Achilles. I've never claimed Achilles never had to block or parry; please point to where I've stated this. I outlined Achilles' strategy once he sees what Sauron will be doing in the battlefield.

Regarding the sword, I'm only familiar with the films so during the siege battle with Sauron, it's not stated that this was a magical sword. It was only after it cut off Sauron's fingers that were told this wasn't a normal sword; which implies the extraordinariness of this sword comes from the fact that it cut Sauron.

The rider he hit in an unarmored part of his body for that we see the spear embedded above the armor. I'm also again impressed that you're sticking with "sword itself was totally mundane such that Achilles hurling a bronze spear will be fine". I'm also impressed that apparently you're rolling with "Sauron will conveniently be reaching out with fingers splayed to be targeted this way." You know, for this to matter.

I appreciate that you're not straight up ignoring my posts at this point? But you're certainly still doing that as far as things like their content, and those of the movies.

If there's book knowledge that's not stated in the film, that says only Andúril can kill Sauron, is there really a point pitting Sauron against a team that doesn't have this sword?

[Pendaran]

Please point out which part of the scenario I decided to change. Spartans & Backup vs Persians is going to have a lot of dead bodies, with a lot of unused weapons. Spartans & Backup vs Sauron is going to have a lot of dead bodies with a lot of unused weapons. Or if you prefer a clean floor, the Spartans hand their spears to Achilles. I've never claimed Achilles never had to block or parry; please point to where I've stated this. I outlined Achilles' strategy once he sees what Sauron will be doing in the battlefield.

The scenario says "Bonus, they go to war with Sauron." You are the one who decided this means "they go to war with Sauron alone, under the most favoured, weapons strewn battlefield conditions I can contrive."

There is nothing saying Sauron bamfs into existence where they are fighting. There is nothing saying anything other than "bonus: they go to war with Sauron." I get why you need to read that as "thus I say what the exact conditions of them doing so are in a way that helps me not deal with the stuff I keep ignoring", but that's you, deciding what the scenario is.

You also seem to keep veering back and forth on whether you're discussing the idea of Achilles vs Sauron, or Achilles vs Sauron "and also the conditions are as favourable as I can contrive."

I am discussing the notion of Achilles vs Sauron, the two of them fighting each other.

Regarding the sword, I'm only familiar with the films so during the siege battle with Sauron, it's not stated that this was a magical sword. It was only after it cut off Sauron's fingers that were told this wasn't a normal sword; which implies the extraordinariness of this sword comes from the fact that it cut Sauron.

…. you're basically saying at this point that a sword retaining its sharpness for thousands of years such that characters remark in surprise on this being the case means this sword was totally normal. Your argument requires describing a different movie that happened other than the one that happened.

which implies the extraordinariness of this sword comes from the fact that it cut Sauron.

Only if you decide that a different movie happened.

Please point out which part of the scenario I decided to change. Spartans & Backup vs Persians is going to have a lot of dead bodies, with a lot of unused weapons. Spartans & Backup vs Sauron is going to have a lot of dead bodies with a lot of unused weapons. Or if you prefer a clean floor, the Spartans hand their spears to Achilles.

So, despite the portion of this thread where we've done nothing but talk about Achilles vs Sauron, whenever you talked about how Achilles could easily take him out, what you meant was "Achillies+everyone". Is that the new argument?

I'll again clarify then. Achilles vs Sauron. I am talking about the idea of Achilles vs Sauron.

If there's book knowledge that's not stated in the film, that says only Andúril can kill Sauron, is there really a point pitting Sauron against a team that doesn't have this sword?

I'm sure plenty of things can kill Sauron.

Achilles, with his bronze weapons, fighting a guy in heavy steel armor with no exposed areas like the ones he has targeted, going for fingers that were cut off by a sword that could retain sharpness even in its fragments after thousands of years, with no PIS to require Sauron to splay his fingers out while reaching slowly for Achilles to try to hit, and who only has to hit Achilles anywhere, once, glancingly, or for Achilles to even just try to parry or block or deflect him, to send him on a magical fight ending journey, isn't one of them.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Pendaran, you trying to tell me that Achilles' bronze weapons, are no match for Sauron's heavy plate that covers all of his vital bits ?

Only witches use the magic of logic so well.

[Pendaran]

Pendaran, you trying to tell me that Achilles' bronze weapons, are no match for Sauron's heavy plate that covers all of his vital bits ?

Only witches use the magic of logic so well.

Not for nothing but you're requiring me to start boring you to death with history instead of magic by talking about how within the shifts to the bronze age to iron, some cultures did basically regard steel as having some inherently magical quality ;p


Who needs witchcraft when I can kill people with anthropology! Witchcraft, feh.


So anyway, time for a multi part lecture series as regards cultural attitudes towards metallurgy...

[The Arbiter]

I would just like to point out that Sauron's blows were not /just/ knocking back dozens of men.

They were creating visible flashes of light with small shockwave effects. People he /didn't hit/ were getting tossed as sidescatter.

I think Pen has it wrong honestly. I dont think he needs to hit Achilles once. I figure even a missed blow can possibly shatter the dudes bones

[Pendaran]

I would just like to point out that Sauron's blows were not /just/ knocking back dozens of men.

They were creating visible flashes of light with small shockwave effects. People he /didn't hit/ were getting tossed as sidescatter.

I think Pen has it wrong honestly. I dont think he needs to hit Achilles once. I figure even a missed blow can possibly shatter the dudes bones

I was being moderately conservative. You could squint and try to argue that he'd hit them on the backswing or the height of the arc or we didn't quite see that specific hit or whatever. It would be mostly reasonableish.

Which wouldn't change that in that case all he'd need to do was hit Achilles anywhere at all, glancingly, or just Achilles trying to block him, etc.

[The Arbiter]

I was being moderately conservative. You could squint and try to argue that he'd hit them on the backswing or the height of the arc or we didn't quite see that specific hit or whatever. It would be mostly reasonable enough.

Which wouldn't change that in that case all he'd need to do was hit Achilles anywhere at all, glancingly, or just Achilles trying to block him, etc.

Oh, I don't disagree with the outcome of either assessment of Sauron's capabilities.

Sauron was heavily armored and literally twice the height of the biggest guy Achilles has fought even without getting into his blatant superhuman stuff.

I just enjoy picking through movie stuff with obsessive levels of attention lol. On 1/4 speed, dude clearly just tosses guys he doesn't hit like leaves in the wind. I have a reeeaaally good TV :P

My wife hates it when I kick her off of Red Dead 2 to double check Rumble stuff haha

[Coin Biter]

Guy Ritchie King Arthur final fight was against a video game boss, sorry, giant demon knight. What would be his chances against the armoured Sauron of the first movie?

[MindofShadow]

I'd agree that in his prime he probably was along the lines of Boromir, but he looked what, 65-70 in the fight?

Aragorn was 80+ in the movies and in his physical prime still.

Elendil was a pure blood Numeanorian

And I believe Elendil was over 300 years old or some ****. He wasn't a normal human. Boromir barely had any Numeanor blood in him.


(if it makes you feel any better, in the books, king of the Men Elendil and king of hte elves Gil-Gilad teamed up to fight Sauron and both died but beat him up enough for Isildur to cut off the ring. Alos, Elendil was 7'2.. lol)

[sfgiantsfanmike]

The Spartans have enlisted more help pre- their fight with the Persians. Their Following Recruits;

-Achilles
-Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja
-The Scorpion King
-Jason and the Argonauts
-Spartacus
-Hercules
-Maximus
-King Arthur
-Alexander The Great
-Aragorn and the Fellowship
-Jack Sparrow and Crew
-Zorro
-Robin Hood
-Lancelot

Each Character is film composite but in their most recent film look.

Bonus: They must go to war with Sauron

Those poor Persians, what did they ever do to you?

As to the Sauron part I don't remember exactly how strong he was but since you said film and didn't restrict it I'm assuming Hercules and Arthur are allowed their Fate/Stay Night - Heaven's Feel counter parts? If so they duo him with little problems.

[big_adventure]

Two little comments:

1. Hercules being included means **** like being physically strong enough to make the straights of Gibraltar BY HAND. That happened on screen. The rocks on both sides really are called the Pillars of Hercules. He can likely no-sell Sauron, is a MUCH better fighter and can certainly punch the guy's head straight off of his body.

2. Achilles' spear toss in the film was completely ridiculous and probably worthy of Bullseye or any other individual. He launched it hundreds of meters, by hand, it hit a dude galloping on a horse dead in the neck, and launched the dude off of a horse backwards as if he'd run to the end of a chain. The second best warrior of the age (well, OK, we can get into a discussion as to whether Big Ajax was better as well, but whatever), Hector, looked absolutely terrified by that result; literally stopping his horse mid-charge. I'm not saying that it would let him kill Sauron or anything, but let's not undersell the feat.

[Sol_M]

While the spear throwing was clearly a feat beyond what real world humans are capable of, I doubt it covered hundreds of meters. It's also not bullseye level crazy, anyone with super strength could do roughly the same thing.

It's still an impossible throw though, and stated to be such in the movie itself, IIRC.

Not that it matters, because while Achilles was portrayed as an almost invincible, superhuman warrior in the movie, he's dealing with a 14 foot tall, heavily armored giant mace wielding dude that literally swats armored soldiers around like flies from the force of his blows. It's hilariously beyond anything he's ever dealt with. Achilles don't want none of that.

Arguing that he'll somehow snipe the armored ring finger clear off without ever getting hit is just unrealistic.

You could give him the ability to make an unlimited number of steel tipped spears teleport into his hand and he'd probably still lose. He has a better chance of killing Sauron by turning him into a pin cushion than he has of cutting off his finger with a spear throw.

[big_adventure]

While the spear throwing was clearly a feat beyond what real world humans are capable of, I doubt it covered hundreds of meters. It's also not bullseye level crazy, anyone with super strength could do roughly the same thing.

It's still an impossible throw though, and stated to be such in the movie itself, IIRC.

Not that it matters, because while Achilles was portrayed as an almost invincible, superhuman warrior in the movie, he's dealing with a 14 foot tall, heavily armored giant mace wielding dude that literally swats armored soldiers around like flies from the force of his blows. It's hilariously beyond anything he's ever dealt with. Achilles don't want none of that.

Arguing that he'll somehow snipe the armored ring finger clear off without ever getting hit is just unrealistic.

You could give him the ability to make an unlimited number of steel tipped spears teleport into his hand and he'd probably still lose. He has a better chance of killing Sauron by turning him into a pin cushion than he has of cutting off his finger with a spear throw.

Oh, I'm not making the argument that he'd be able to cut off Sauron's finger with a toss. I was just commenting on how insane the toss was and that it shouldn't be undersold. It shouldn't be oversold either, of course. :-)

And here, really, the "good" guys just need to get Herc engaged with Sauron. As much as Achilles doesn't want any part of Sauron, Sauron doesn't want any part of Hercules. Sauron makes a nice slow mace swing towards Herc, Herc catches the mace, and shoves it up Sauron's ass and pulls the trigger until it goes "click."*

*Or something.

[Pendaran]

2. Achilles' spear toss in the film was completely ridiculous and probably worthy of Bullseye or any other individual. He launched it hundreds of meters, by hand, it hit a dude galloping on a horse dead in the neck, and launched the dude off of a horse backwards as if he'd run to the end of a chain. The second best warrior of the age (well, OK, we can get into a discussion as to whether Big Ajax was better as well, but whatever), Hector, looked absolutely terrified by that result; literally stopping his horse mid-charge. I'm not saying that it would let him kill Sauron or anything, but let's not undersell the feat.

Beaten to it, but there's a whole lot of exaggeration in this post. No, this performance is not worthy of Bullseye when the only thing that is notable about it in some posthuman sense is the sustained force of the throw. The exposed, unarmored area it hit was sizable enough just fine. No, hundreds of meters is going way overboard.

It is not underselling the feat to state that it is worth nothing as far as Achilles doing anything to Sauron.