Stan Lee RIP

[Jim Kelly]

I don't want to get too deep into talking about how much credit Stan Lee deserves, as this isn't the time for that, but Martin Goodman's management style was to follow trends not set trends. When you look at Stan's enormous output in the 1950s, it was largely Millie the Model, Patsy Walker, Homer the Happy Ghost and Kid Colt--following the trends of the time not setting them.

And when DC and Archie proved that super-heroes could be brought back with some success (although more success for DC than Archie), Goodman decided they should try that out, yet again. They didn't go into the super-heroes in a big way, at first in the '60s--it was still largely those other properties from the 1950s that Atlas continued to publish and Stan wrote, with the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and others introduced slowly into the mix--while DC had several super-hero titles already on the stands and doing well in sales. Of course, once Goodman saw that the super-heroes were a seller, he gave Stan Lee and the other creators the freedom to introduce a whole universe.

Stan Lee deserves credit for an innovative writing style, but I think his biggest contribution was how he promoted the comics. He was not shy about telling the reader that the comic in hand was the greatest thing ever in the history of the universe and you should be so happy to have it in your life. Stan was relentless in putting the best face on the Marvel Age and making his readers into True Believers. I think that's his highest accomplishment as a businessman and the reason why his passing is being recognized all over the world, when fellow DeWitt Cinton High School graduates like Bill Finger and Will Eisner were never mourned outside of the comic book fan community.

[Robotman]

I would love to see DC do a tribute to Stan and bring back the Just Imagine characters for a one shot.

[Hawkman]

Glad I got to meet him, even if it was only briefly and I don't even think he could hear me. Creative work aside, he always struck me as a genuinely good and decent soul who deeply appreciated all of the support his fans gave him over the years.

If nothing else, he deserves credit from the greater comic book community as an ambassador to the medium, one that I can't imagine will soon be replaced, if ever, even. He'll be sorely missed.

[Jokerr]

I always disagree with this statement because it's indisputable that the characters originated with Stan Lee. Kirby and Ditko added design elements and Ditko came up with Spider-Man's webshooters. Later, they also plotted many of the stories, but everything originates with Stan.

In fact, I always argue that even giving co-creator credit to Kirby and Ditko doesn't mean their contribution to the creation of the character was 50%. The main appeal of the Marvel characters is their personalities and the introspective neurosis that was brought to superheroes. This was ALL Stan Lee. 100%.

Steve Ditko got the Spider-Man assignment in the first place because Stan wanted Ditko's artistic sensibilities to interpret Stan's ideas rather than Kirby who made Spider-Man look "too heroic."

So, Stan came up with the characters, their personality strengths and flaws, their voices, their powers, their origins, the basic setup/environment in which they operated, etc. As EIC, Stan also decided which artist would best interpret his vision of the character and assigned the projects accordingly.

Yes, Kirby, Ditko, and others came up with the unique "look" of a Marvel Comic and, by extension, the look of the Marvel Universe. As time went along, and Stan became too busy running the company, they also often plotted the stories besides doing the artwork.

It's ok to say that Stan should have given Jack and Steve plotting or co-plotting credit because sometimes he didn't, but it is complete bull to say that there is any real debate as to "how much Stan actually contributed to the creation of the Marvel characters with regards to Kirby and Ditko."

No, there is absolutely no debate as to Stan's origination of the characters and his contributions in fleshing them out.

Without Stan, none of the Marvel characters would exist in the first place. Without Kirby and Ditko, they WOULD exist. They would be different, yes, but they would exist.

Stan Lee - "l've got an idea about this character his name is spiderman "
Steve Ditko - web shooters, iconic red and blue costume, wall crawling etc.
Yeah, Stan Lee came up with the gimmicks but really had no other creative vision for the characters.
I doubt any of the those marvel characters would be as successful as they are now without Kirby or Ditko.
So I don't see a valid reason for you to "disagree with this statement" about how much he contributed to the creation of marvel characters.
Steve Ditko practically created spiderman on his own. Stan came up with a name.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

Stan Lee - "l've got an idea about this character his name is spiderman "
Steve Ditko - web shooters, iconic red and blue costume, wall crawling etc.
Yeah, Stan Lee came up with the gimmicks but really had no other creative vision for the characters.
I doubt any of the those marvel characters would be as successful as they are now without Kirby or Ditko.
So I don't see a valid reason for you to "disagree with this statement" about how much he contributed to the creation of marvel characters.
Steve Ditko practically created spiderman on his own. Stan came up with a name.

Stan didn't just come up with the name "Spider-Man." He came up with the character of Peter Parker, which has always been the selling point of the series, not the webshooters. Stan's idea of nerd-turned-superhero was pretty revolutionary. Also, basing Spider-Man's origin in a sense of guilt over the death of his father figure was unheard of and has been the defining aspect of the character.

That's my valid reason for me to disagree about Spider-Man's creation.

"Steve Ditko practically created spiderman on his own" is completely false. Stan's contributions are far more important because with the Marvel characters, it's their personalities that are the most important, not the costumes and powers. That's all Stan.

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I'm very upset about his passing. May he rest in peace. WatchMojo made a very nice tribute video about him.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xp1bm

[Timothy Hunter]

I would love to see DC do a tribute to Stan and bring back the Just Imagine characters for a one shot.

Not a bad idea, actually. Who would write?

[Jokerr]

Stan didn't just come up with the name "Spider-Man." He came up with the character of Peter Parker, which has always been the selling point of the series, not the webshooters. Stan's idea of nerd-turned-superhero was pretty revolutionary. Also, basing Spider-Man's origin in a sense of guilt over the death of his father figure was unheard of and has been the defining aspect of the character.

That's my valid reason for me to disagree about Spider-Man's creation.

"Steve Ditko practically created spiderman on his own" is completely false. Stan's contributions are far more important because with the Marvel characters, it's their personalities that are the most important, not the costumes and powers. That's all Stan.

Sorry but the fact that you're arguing about this just shows how little you actually know. Like the guy I saw on Facebook who posted a picture of Captain America brooding with the caption :
"In memory of my father and creator Stan Lee"
I was laughing my ass off. Then I called the guy out for his dumb mistake, and he deleted his post.
You know the sad thing though? It had 30+ likes and was posted in a comic book group. I'm not even a marvel fan and I know more about their characters than these so called "fans"
The thing is I don't just watch movies and follow the hype. I actually read. I read a lot, and not just comics. I read lots articles and interviews because I have a genuine interest about this medium. So when I write "Steve Ditko practically created Spiderman on his own" It's not me saying it. It's me quoting other people who have said it. You know...people who have actually worked with, and knew both Stan and Ditko.
And also Ditko didn't just draw. He had a much greater influence and control over the narrative than you believe. So yeah, that's not "all Stan"
Stan may have come up with the initial idea of Peter Parker aka Spiderman but it was Steve Ditko who expanded upon it and made it work. And these are things that Stan Lee has actually said himself. Just because you have an idea or come up with a concept doesn't mean you created a character. It's usually a collaborative effort. And Stan Lee didn't put much "effort" into it.
And just to touch on some of the Things you said:
"Basing spiderman's origin in a sense of guilt over the death of his father figure was unheard of"
Really?????????¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿
"UNHEARD OF"
Dude please... I am not even going to dignify that with a response.
And also, I don't know that world you live in but, spiderman's unique costume and cool powers/abilities (the webshooter also apply to this category) ARE EXACTLY THE SELLING POINT OF THIS CHARACTER AND ALMOST ANY OTHER CHARACTER YOU CAN THINK OF!!!!!
I'm just going to finish with this, Stan Lee is completely overhyped. He definitely deserves some credit but, he is not the God and Almighty creator of the marvel universe most people believe. But Hey! don't take my word for it. Go do your own research and come back with a valid argument.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

The thing is I don't just watch movies and follow the hype. I actually read. I read a lot, and not just comics. I read lots articles and interviews because I have a genuine interest about this medium. So when I write "Steve Ditko practically created Spiderman on his own" It's not me saying it. It's me quoting other people who have said it. You know...people who have actually worked with, and knew both Stan and Ditko.

Marvel was pretty tiny back then, so I don't know how many people were in the room when Stan and Steve discussed Spider-Man, but I'd venture to guess that there really are very few eyewitnesses. There is no doubt in my mind that Stan was the creative force behind Peter Parker's backstory because it's all Stan's style. I've read Steve Ditko's solo work, and it reads nothing like Peter Parker. Steve's characters that he really writes himself are pretty devoid of personality and are just mouthpieces for his objectivist worldview.

"Basing spiderman's origin in a sense of guilt over the death of his father figure was unheard of"
Really?????????¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿
"UNHEARD OF"
Dude please... I am not even going to dignify that with a response.

So you "touched upon" something I said, and then didn't dignify it with a response. OK.

Anyway, I do think Spider-Man's origin is unique, and, again, it's in Stan's style complete with an O. Henry twist ending where Spider-Man is indirectly responsible for his uncle's death. I do think that's unheard of. I don't think Ditko had ANYTHING to do with it, or the "With great power..." tagline. These are MAJOR elements in Spider-Man's DNA that have made him so popular and memorable.

Peter Parker's backstory, voice, and personality were pretty much set with Amazing Fantasy 15, and nothing I've ever read about comics history -- and I've also read a lot -- has ever contradicted that Stan came up with all of it.

And also, I don't know that world you live in but, spiderman's unique costume and cool powers/abilities (the webshooter also apply to this category) ARE EXACTLY THE SELLING POINT OF THIS CHARACTER AND ALMOST ANY OTHER CHARACTER YOU CAN THINK OF!!!!!

Nope. For Marvel characters the powers/costume is A selling point, but not THE selling point. It's the attitude/personality that keeps readers coming back to the Marvel characters from everyone from Spider-Man to Wolverine. They've had different costumes and have remained just as popular. Yes, people like the webshooters and the claws, but it's the human element and the "feet of clay" aspect to the heroes that Stan established, and later writers followed, that primarily makes the Marvel heroes meaningful to people. Also, the fact that the heroes aren't all good, and the villains can sometimes behave with a sense of honor is what people love about Marvel, and that definitely comes from Stan because Ditko hated that aspect of Stan's writing because of Ditko's politics and was pretty vocal about it. Again, more proof of just how Marvel's ethos was so reflective of Stan's worldview rather than his collaborators'.

We're not going to agree, and that's fine, but if you have actual links containing quotes from direct eyewitnesses that Stan Lee didn't create Peter Parker's personality, origin, and backstory, I would love to read them to judge for myself if they have any merit.

[Jokerr]

Marvel was pretty tiny back then, so I don't know how many people were in the room when Stan and Steve discussed Spider-Man, but I'd venture to guess that there really are very few eyewitnesses. There is no doubt in my mind that Stan was the creative force behind Peter Parker's backstory because it's all Stan's style. I've read Steve Ditko's solo work, and it reads nothing like Peter Parker. Steve's characters that he really writes himself are pretty devoid of personality and are just mouthpieces for his objectivist worldview.



So you "touched upon" something I said, and then didn't dignify it with a response. OK.

Anyway, I do think Spider-Man's origin is unique, and, again, it's in Stan's style complete with an O. Henry twist ending where Spider-Man is indirectly responsible for his uncle's death. I do think that's unheard of. I don't think Ditko had ANYTHING to do with it, or the "With great power..." tagline. These are MAJOR elements in Spider-Man's DNA that have made him so popular and memorable.

Peter Parker's backstory, voice, and personality were pretty much set with Amazing Fantasy 15, and nothing I've ever read about comics history -- and I've also read a lot -- has ever contradicted that Stan came up with all of it.



Nope. For Marvel characters the powers/costume is A selling point, but not THE selling point. It's the attitude/personality that keeps readers coming back to the Marvel characters from everyone from Spider-Man to Wolverine. They've had different costumes and have remained just as popular. Yes, people like the webshooters and the claws, but it's the human element and the "feet of clay" aspect to the heroes that Stan established, and later writers followed, that primarily makes the Marvel heroes meaningful to people. Also, the fact that the heroes aren't all good, and the villains can sometimes behave with a sense of honor is what people love about Marvel, and that definitely comes from Stan because Ditko hated that aspect of Stan's writing because of Ditko's politics and was pretty vocal about it. Again, more proof of just how Marvel's ethos was so reflective of Stan's worldview rather than his collaborators'.

We're not going to agree, and that's fine, but if you have actual links containing quotes from direct eyewitnesses that Stan Lee didn't create Peter Parker's personality, origin, and backstory, I would love to read them to judge for myself if they have any merit.

I didn't want to waste words for something so oblivious but here it goes...
The answers is Batman. You already know the story so I'm not gonna get into it. It may not be the same type of "guilt" but he did lose people he deeply cares about. And that grief does fuel his vendetta against crime.
I'm not trying to compare Batman and spiderman because the two really are completely different characters but, the whole thing about the "guilt" and "death of a father figure" I wouldn't say is something completely revolutionary.

"Its the personality that keeps people coming back" yeah I agree with that,
But it wasn't my point.
The thing about costumes and super powers is, they are a big selling point particularly in the case of comic books because it is a visual medium. There's really no way around that. Not acknowledging it would just be being in denial. Doesn't matter DC or Marvel. Haven't you noticed ever time they do a big event or try pushing a new series they always get one of the best artists to do it? Even if it's just for the first couple of issues. That's because they want to pull in more people as possible and it usually works. Now keeping their attention is a different story. But the fact is you see an interesting hero or nice cover chances are you're going to check it out. I myself don't just read comics based on flashy artwork and "cool" costumes. I like a good thought out plot an relatable characters as much as anyone else does. But what I'm trying to say is, that the initial wave of attention is a big contributing factor to how successful something becomes. Especially if that something is completely new. And if it weren't for spiderman's unique look
And all that, do you really think he would have caught on with people and become what he is today. With that web gun and Captain America style mask and boots? Be real now. Their are plenty of characters with great personality who just never catch on with people.
And that bit about hero's not being all good and villains not being all bad isn't exactly something strictly associated with Marvel.
DC deals with those themes all the time.
About the links - Its not like I save the stuff but there is definitely things to be read about it if you're interested.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

I didn't want to waste words for something so oblivious but here it goes...
The answers is Batman. You already know the story so I'm not gonna get into it. It may not be the same type of "guilt" but he did lose people he deeply cares about. And that grief does fuel his vendetta against crime.
I'm not trying to compare Batman and spiderman because the two really are completely different characters but, the whole thing about the "guilt" and "death of a father figure" I wouldn't say is something completely revolutionary.

Looks like we agree on some things and disagree on others. I know that comics are a visual medium and that the artists are important, and I agree that when scanning comics on the newsstand, it's the art and cover concept that draws a reader's attention. I also agree that Steve Ditko is a co-creator of Spider-Man. I just think Stan's contributions are more important because no one reads a character month in and month out for decades just to look at a costume and art. Spider-Man has survived for 46 years because people love the character, and Peter Parker's personality -- the nerd who doesn't give up --is at the center of it all, and Stan created that himself.

As for Batman, I disagree that Bruce Wayne feels guilt over the death of his parents. In the original origin, and when the character is written correctly, Bruce feels sadness and anger, not guilt. In recent years, some writers have decided to make Batman's origin "better" by adding a sense of guilt by having Bruce pester his parents go to the movies that night or pester them to take a shortcut down the alley or somesuch so that Bruce was "responsible" for their deaths, but that was just misguided writers like Jeph Loeb trying to Marvelize Batman. So, my point still stands that back in 1962, yes, it was VERY revolutionary for a hero to be indirectly responsible for his "father's" death.

And that bit about hero's not being all good and villains not being all bad isn't exactly something strictly associated with Marvel.
DC deals with those themes all the time.

DC did NOT deal with those themes all the time back in 1962 when Spider-Man was created. That's the point, and again, speaks to Stan's influence as a writer and creator.

[LordUltimus]

Is this conversation really appropriate for a mourning thread?