Uncanny X-Men #1 (spoilers/discussion)

[TheCape]

how did kitty canonically become a ninja?

Ogun, Logan's sensei trapped her and then brainwashed her at the same time that he trained her, Logan did train her too, mostly to save her from his old master brainwashing, after that she keep most of what she learned under the two.

[Tazirai]

how does she still have her ninja skills? people were up in arms about the "cultural appropriation" of psylocke becoming Asian, yet are ok with this? if she is British betsy she should be doing things that character did before becoming kwannon. (this isnt directed at you but just a general question).

Also Martial Arts are not inherently an Asian thing. ALL Melee combat is Martial Arts, from Boxing to Krav Maga to Tae kwan do.

Psylocke recreated a body from her memories, but she didn't lose memories. She probably had to do some retraining, but not much.
Even the NU-NU body isn't her original. It's like 99%, not 100%.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

being able to train and learn abilities is one thing ( as those characters you mentioned did) and British betsy doing this without any conditioning in her original form is another. they are not the same.

But Psychics have the ability to learn/take information from the minds of other people. Jean's done it to learn how to pilot a space ship and the mind from a doctor to reform a body.

oh it's hypocritical because people who had issue with her being Asian now want her to keep the "cool" things associated with her being Asian.

The hypocrisy is coming from your argument. You're making general statements about "people" that aren't the same group. And stereotypical "cool" things about Asians. Then trying to make an issue out of something that multiple people have offered rebuttals with evidence as to why you're incorrect.

Just accept that you're wrong and move on.

Saying Psylocke participates in cultural appropriation is setting a dangerous standard for anyone that is mixed race. Because essentially that's how she was treated and portrayed.

[butterflykyss]

Only if she were pretending to be something she wasn't. In her case it's different. She wasn't a white British woman trying to be a Japanese Ninja.

Psylocke/Kwannon was more like what Marvel's recently done in the Infinity Wars and combined two characters with both aspects of each other.

What you're arguing fits far more to characters like Kitty, Elektra, Wolverine who CHOSE to take on those attributes.

I dont see a problem with people learning the ways of another culture if there is a story behind why they chose to do so. as I said, I loved Asian betsy but everyone who wanted her back in her original form shouldnt now be hoping she is still a ninja. those are attributes associated with Asian betsy, not British betsy.

Betsy was also taught how to use her ninja abilities though; some of it was gained through Kwannon and the rest of it was stuff that she learned to do over the years that she actually had those abilities. Kwannon didn't know how to use all of the weapons that Betsy did and such as that. Through the same logic, Kwannon shouldn't be able to use telepathy or the psychic knife at all whatsoever, and yet she can and she does. Also the situation with Nightcrawler is entirely different than Psylocke keeping the ninja skills - Nightcrawler's agility is supernatural, not learned.

what ninjutsu abilities did she learn that kwannon didnt already know? using different weapons doesnt really qualify to me as learning a new form of martial art. and I agree anything that kwannon didnt have under her own body shouldnt be there simply because she swapped bodies with psylocke. it would be like emma being able to control the weather because she swapped bodies with storm. and that isnt true about nightcrawler agility being supernatural and not learned:

Ogun, Logan's sensei trapped her and then brainwashed her at the same time that he trained her, Logan did train her too, mostly to save her from his old master brainwashing, after that she keep most of what she learned under the two.

thank you. I figured it wasnt something she didnt wake up one morning saying "I'm a ninja" followed by instant butt kicking.

Also Martial Arts are not inherently an Asian thing. ALL Melee combat is Martial Arts, from Boxing to Krav Maga to Tae kwan do.

Psylocke recreated a body from her memories, but she didn't lose memories. She probably had to do some retraining, but not much.
Even the NU-NU body isn't her original. It's like 99%, not 100%.

I never said martial arts was an inherently Asian think; however, the art of ninjutsu is.

and I would think even if it's not a 100% alike her British body still wouldnt be accustomed to such abilities. again I think there is a reason why the artist chose to show her fighting with European gear than Asian ones.

[butterflykyss]

But Psychics have the ability to learn/take information from the minds of other people. Jean's done it to learn how to pilot a space ship and the mind from a doctor to reform a body.



The hypocrisy is coming from your argument. You're making general statements about "people" that aren't the same group. And stereotypical "cool" things about Asians. Then trying to make an issue out of something that multiple people have offered rebuttals with evidence as to why you're incorrect.

Just accept that you're wrong and move on.

Saying Psylocke participates in cultural appropriation is setting a dangerous standard for anyone that is mixed race. Because essentially that's how she was treated and portrayed.

jean could psychically learn in less than a second how to fight in the same fashion as a ninja but her body wouldnt allow her to move in a way to let her do so effectively unless she trained her body accordingly to do so. flying a ship, which is just pressing buttons and moving the steering mechanisms, is NOT the same as being able to perform physical moves needed to be a ninja especially if you dont have the strength and flexibility needed to do so.

I don't think you are understanding my posts as from your responses you seem to be wanting to argue for the sake of it. I never said Psylocke participates in cultural appropriation, where did I say that? In fact I said I liked Asian Psylocke as that is the version i was first introduced to. I said people who had issue with Asian psylocke made the point she shouldnt be in her Asian form because it was a form of cultural appropriation - dont believe me check her appreciation thread. My question was then how do these same people who have issue with Asian pyslocke now are ok wth her still being a ninja (which was a characteristic associated with her being Asian), especially when her British form never displayed such abilities. This is why i said it comes across as hypocritical. makes sense? everything else you are talking is just you making something out of nothing that was never ever said on my end. Please try understanding exactly what I'm saying before instructing me to concede in being wrong.

[Beetle]

I was one of those fans who wanted Betsy to stop wearing an Asian woman's body like a used prom dress. I also want her to continue using the skills she learned in Kwannon's body, including whatever martial arts and ninja skills she's developed.

I just think that there is a difference between learning about another culture and respecting it, and actually being from that culture. No matter how much time she spent studying martial arts Betsy was still born a white woman, she was still raised posh and British with servants and all of the privilege that entails. Fans of the Asian body claim that she was half Kwannon and half Betsy but that never seemed to be the case to me. She only really cared about Betsy's history, her family and her friends. After almost 30 years in Kwannon's body we still know next to nothing about her other than that she was an assassin and involved with Matsu'o. If she was really half Kwannon we would know something about her, her family, where she was raised, how she was raised, some sort of connection to her Japanese culture

So I was not comfortable counting her as a POC or a mixed race character, and it made me really mad to think that she was considered one of the most popular Asian characters in Marvel. Because other than martial arts and serving tea to Dr. Takiguchi, the change was only skin deep. It was a shallow and obviously white male perspective of what a Japanese person should act like.

But that doesn't mean I wanted her to stop practicing martial arts. She spent years honing those abilities. Off the top of my head I remember her rigorously training with an alternate reality Ogun in order to fight a Slaymaster while she was with the Exiles. I never wanted to hit the reset button on her character and have her forget everything she's learned or experienced. I was just over the yellowface banana.

[Triniking1234]

However Betsy being trapped in Kwannon's body and her knowing ninjutsu are two separate issues. Having a problem with one of those situations doesn't mean one would have a problem with the other.

[Drey]

Sooooo, I'm gonna touch on a lighter subject because it's just gonna keep going around in circles. Does anyone enjoy the difference in color signatures that Betsy and Jean have? Usually they'd both have pink power signatures, but the colorist gave Betsy a pinkish lavender-like hue, while Jean got a magenta-like red hue.

[butterflykyss]

I was one of those fans who wanted Betsy to stop wearing an Asian woman's body like a used prom dress. I also want her to continue using the skills she learned in Kwannon's body, including whatever martial arts and ninja skills she's developed.

I just think that there is a difference between learning about another culture and respecting it, and actually being from that culture. No matter how much time she spent studying martial arts Betsy was still born a white woman, she was still raised posh and British with servants and all of the privilege that entails. Fans of the Asian body claim that she was half Kwannon and half Betsy but that never seemed to be the case to me. She only really cared about Betsy's history, her family and her friends. After almost 30 years in Kwannon's body we still know next to nothing about her other than that she was an assassin and involved with Matsu'o. If she was really half Kwannon we would know something about her, her family, where she was raised, how she was raised, some sort of connection to her Japanese culture

So I was not comfortable counting her as a POC or a mixed race character, and it made me really mad to think that she was considered one of the most popular Asian characters in Marvel. Because other than martial arts and serving tea to Dr. Takiguchi, the change was only skin deep. It was a shallow and obviously white male perspective of what a Japanese person should act like.

But that doesn't mean I wanted her to stop practicing martial arts. She spent years honing those abilities. Off the top of my head I remember her rigorously training with an alternate reality Ogun in order to fight a Slaymaster while she was with the Exiles. I never wanted to hit the reset button on her character and have her forget everything she's learned or experienced. I was just over the yellowface banana.

even though I disagree with the idea she was wearing an Asian body like a prom dress, I can respect the idea of people wanting her back in her original form. my question is how do you reconcile wanting to do away with the things associated with her time as an Asian woman unless you allow her to have an identity beyond those associations?

I think this first issue of uncanny handled everything appropriately for those who wanted her back in her body and also wanted to see her still engage in h2h. instead of using a katana, she used a traditionally European longsword and shield. why not have her learn different forms of martial arts that doesnt necessarily translate to Asian origins? to me it still seems a form of wanting the best of both worlds. now I think if she went through training in this new form, even if it was just an issue devoted to this, it would be better than just her all of the sudden cutting cartwheels and roundhouse kicks all of the place.

[Triniking1234]

Sooooo, I'm gonna touch on a lighter subject because it's just gonna keep going around in circles. Does anyone enjoy the difference in color signatures that Betsy and Jean have? Usually they'd both have pink power signatures, but the colorist gave Betsy a pinkish lavender-like hue, while Jean got a magenta-like red hue.

I could normally tell the difference but I probably have a mental block that let me see their auras in the colours I'm used to.

[butterflykyss]

Sooooo, I'm gonna touch on a lighter subject because it's just gonna keep going around in circles. Does anyone enjoy the difference in color signatures that Betsy and Jean have? Usually they'd both have pink power signatures, but the colorist gave Betsy a pinkish lavender-like hue, while Jean got a magenta-like red hue.

yea I like the color betsy has but I'm pretty sure this was always the color with her. especially during the outback years:






I very much so like this.

[Beetle]

even though I disagree with the idea she was wearing an Asian body like a prom dress, I can respect the idea of people wanting her back in her original form. my question is how do you reconcile wanting to do away with the things associated with her time as an Asian woman unless you allow her to have an identity beyond those associations?

I think this first issue of uncanny handled everything appropriately for those who wanted her back in her body and also wanted to see her still engage in h2h. instead of using a katana, she used a traditionally European longsword and shield. why not have her learn different forms of martial arts that doesnt necessarily translate to Asian origins? to me it still seems a form of wanting the best of both worlds. now I think if she went through training in this new form, even if it was just an issue devoted to this, it would be better than just her all of the sudden cutting cartwheels and roundhouse kicks all of the place.

I reconcile it because she's still fundamentally the same person (which was my problem with the body switch in the first place). She spent years learning those skills, why would she suddenly switch to a completely different fighting style when she knows that cartwheels and roundhouse kicks work really well with her powers? She knows how to do them even if her body hasn't completely caught up (which shouldn't be a problem for long because this is fiction and superheroes are all supermodels with ridiculously nigh-Olympic skill levels).

I don't mind her expanding her psychic arsenal or adapting new martial arts into her style. But completely divorcing her from the past 30 years of development isn't doing anyone any favors.

[butterflykyss]

I reconcile it because she's still fundamentally the same person (which was my problem with the body switch in the first place). She spent years learning those skills, why would she suddenly switch to a completely different fighting style when she knows that cartwheels and roundhouse kicks work really well with her powers? She knows how to do them even if her body hasn't completely caught up (which should be a problem for long because this is fiction and superheroes are all supermodels with ridiculously nigh-Olympic skill levels).

I don't mind her expanding her psychic arsenal or adapting new martial arts into her style. But completely divorcing her from the past 30 years of development isn't doing anyone any favors.

it's the same analogy I was trying to convey to another poster when I referenced nightcrawler. the knowledge associated with agility and skill she would learn in that body (if she swapped to his body) would most certainly be retained upon returning to original form; however, it doesnt mean she would still be able to do such movement with the same degree of execution upon returning to her original form. now I realize this is kind of an extreme case but it's the same line of logic. betsy never display the psychical capabilities she exhibited as kwannon when in her british original form. to display such abilities again would require training.

and I didnt think divorcing her of her Asian body would do anyone any favors yet here we are. I think marvel understood the issue that some had with her being a white woman in an Asian body which is why we see her using traditional European weaponry and not her typical katana. I mean this is her go to weapon, why change this unless there was a purposeful effort to go down a different path with her.

[Drey]

I could normally tell the difference but I probably have a mental block that let me see their auras in the colours I'm used to.

Sounds like you need a psychic to help with that!

yea I like the color betsy has but I'm pretty sure this was always the color with her. especially during the outback years:






I very much so like this.

I guess with access to better technology, I see more than straight up pink like in that older scan. I see a soft gradient in their power signatures based off a main color, which appears as more than one color. It's the old graphic design art snob in me that's over analyzing lol.

[butterflykyss]

Sounds like you need a psychic to help with that!



I guess with access to better technology, I see more than straight up pink like in that older scan. I see a soft gradient in their power signatures based off a main color, which appears as more than one color. It's the old graphic design art snob in me that's over analyzing lol.

no you are right! but the edges from the new seem to be the shade used for the outer edges. let the snob come through honey!!! lolol