Spiderman vs. Cassandra Cain

[The Arbiter]

Post Crisis and 616. Cass has access to her Shadowtech.

Nightime downtown NYC. 200 meters away.

[Pendaran]

He's still faster, unless I grossly underestimate what the shadowtech can do for her. Which is possible? I didn't follow that stuff all too closely to be honest.

[The Arbiter]

He's still faster, unless I grossly underestimate what the shadowtech can do for her. Which is possible? I didn't follow that stuff all too closely to be honest.

I dont believe speed was affected, but she received some new mobility options. Merging with shadows and whatnot

[The Chou Lives]

Sounds like Night Crawlwr ca Spider Man. And Pete “wins” in that too.

[The Dork Knight]

She could teleport and had a sword I think? Could be enough for the win

[Ptrvc]

She could teleport and had a sword I think? Could be enough for the win

I think the main problem there is that Spider-Senss should counter any teleportation tricks ie teleporting the sword into his head etc.

[Pendaran]

I think the main problem there is that Spider-Senss should counter any teleportation tricks ie teleporting the sword into his head etc.

While he's faster, she's still pretty decently fast. If she's combining that with teleportation and an edged weapon and merging with shadows and crap, I could see her getting a sometimes win via shank from shadows/odd angle/ambush. They start far enough apart and in a city as far as making that possible.

[Ptrvc]

While he's faster, she's still pretty decently fast. If she's combining that with teleportation and an edged weapon and merging with shadows and crap, I could see her getting a sometimes win via shank from shadows/odd angle/ambush. They start far enough apart and in a city as far as making that possible.

Maybe, though I think Pete's prescience combined with his speed should enable him to avoid most attempted bushwhacks. Its really the two working in tandem there, the forewarning combined with the speed to act on it.

[Sol_M]

Spiderman is like, a tier above Cass, from what I understand. He's on the level of being able to biltz low level bullet-timers. Now Cass isn't a low level bullet-timer, but it's still a decent enough speed gap.

More important, Spider sense>Cass's body reading, and works even against things he can't perceive. So it should be enough to avoid getting shanked here.

Maybe once in a while Cass manages to land a fat hit, but mostly, I'd imagine Spidey takes it.

[Captain Morgan]

I wouldn't say Spider-sense > body reading across the board. The body reading seems better in a straight physical fight. But it IS better for avoiding people teleporting into you from no where.

[Sharpandpointies]

Okay, so let's go through what the shadowtech gives Cass.

1. Teleportation.
2. Dimension dumping, though honestly, since she has to grab someone I wouldn't want to try to pull that off on Peter; likely gets her hit while dragging him into the shadow dimension.
3. Intangibility, when desired (seems to have some limitation where she can only go intangible when in contact with a surface...or something...it's vague).

Anyway, these are pretty huge benefits to give someone who is closing in on Peter's speed (in that he isn't going to blitz her, he's just going to enjoy a speed advantage). Assuming she will actually USE the sword (in-character? PROBABLY not, though she has taken out lesser opponents with a sword before. Bloodlusted? Sure), this gives her some serious options.

The Spider-sense is somewhat of a counter for those options, is the problem. If Peter lets it run him like he has on occasion, he might even be able to use it offensively, trying to hit her when she's not intangible (ie, when she's trying to hit HIM). Which...is countered somewhat by the Body-read, so we end up with dueling 'precognitions', here.

Peter being faster, Cass being more skilled.

.....

I'm...EDGING toward Cass, here. It's the counters that her gear gives her combined with the somewhat-maybe-cancelling effect of the two 'precogs', as well as the blade. Both fighters can seriously injure the other with a single hit. But intangibility seals away some of Peter's ability to hurt Cass (he needs to time it perfectly, or catch her in the air) as well as completely wiping away his webbing, and teleportation offsets his mobility advantage by quite a margin.

I figure in a drawn-out fight Peter is going to work out how to win, but with her using a blade, it's not going to be as drawn-out as it could be. Cass can force the advantage of intangibility and teleportation to use the blade, and once she gets a semi-decent hit in, that's going to work against Peter.

Buuuut...this would be a close one. I'm figuring 6, maaaabye 7 out of 10?

Mileage may vary, and I'm open to comment. I'm totally not solid on this; 616 Peter is a beast.

If she DOESN'T use the blade, she's pretty hosed. Sure, pressure points, but I'm leery on her getting clean pressure points that work perfectly against someone FASTER than her, with a combat precog that largely nullifies hers, and who is as tough as Peter happens to be. Peter's going to take that one more handily than Cass does 'with blade'.

[Huntsman Spider]

Okay, so let's go through what the shadowtech gives Cass.

1. Teleportation.
2. Dimension dumping, though honestly, since she has to grab someone I wouldn't want to try to pull that off on Peter; likely gets her hit while dragging him into the shadow dimension.
3. Intangibility, when desired (seems to have some limitation where she can only go intangible when in contact with a surface...or something...it's vague).

Anyway, these are pretty huge benefits to give someone who is closing in on Peter's speed (in that he isn't going to blitz her, he's just going to enjoy a speed advantage). Assuming she will actually USE the sword (in-character? PROBABLY not, though she has taken out lesser opponents with a sword before. Bloodlusted? Sure), this gives her some serious options.

The Spider-sense is somewhat of a counter for those options, is the problem. If Peter lets it run him like he has on occasion, he might even be able to use it offensively, trying to hit her when she's not intangible (ie, when she's trying to hit HIM). Which...is countered somewhat by the Body-read, so we end up with dueling 'precognitions', here.

Peter being faster, Cass being more skilled.

.....

I'm...EDGING toward Cass, here. It's the counters that her gear gives her combined with the somewhat-maybe-cancelling effect of the two 'precogs', as well as the blade. Both fighters can seriously injure the other with a single hit. But intangibility seals away some of Peter's ability to hurt Cass (he needs to time it perfectly, or catch her in the air) as well as completely wiping away his webbing, and teleportation offsets his mobility advantage by quite a margin.

I figure in a drawn-out fight Peter is going to work out how to win, but with her using a blade, it's not going to be as drawn-out as it could be. Cass can force the advantage of intangibility and teleportation to use the blade, and once she gets a semi-decent hit in, that's going to work against Peter.

Buuuut...this would be a close one. I'm figuring 6, maaaabye 7 out of 10?

Mileage may vary, and I'm open to comment. I'm totally not solid on this; 616 Peter is a beast.

If she DOESN'T use the blade, she's pretty hosed. Sure, pressure points, but I'm leery on her getting clean pressure points that work perfectly against someone FASTER than her, with a combat precog that largely nullifies hers, and who is as tough as Peter happens to be. Peter's going to take that one more handily than Cass does 'with blade'.

And in addition to all that, Spider-Man does know kung fu, even if he doesn't use it as often as he should, having learned it to compensate for the loss of his spider-sense in Revenge of the Spider-Slayers, which was then actually heightened by the kung fu he had learned when it was restored right before the final battle of Spider-Island. Captain America also taught him some fighting skills when he first became an Avenger, mainly focusing himself mentally so that he wouldn't be going off on instinct all the time, and he actually used that skill to catch a bullet . . . except the other one went through his hand and all the way up his arm until it exited through his shoulder. Then again, that might be an outlier, as he hasn't exactly replicated it since, likely for lack of regular access to bulletproof armor. That said, while his kung fu skills do supplement if not add to the formidability that his powers already give him, I can understand that those powers might not be enough to significantly compensate for the gap in fighting skill between him and Cass.

[Sharpandpointies]

And in addition to all that, Spider-Man does know kung fu, even if he doesn't use it as often as he should, having learned it to compensate for the loss of his spider-sense in Revenge of the Spider-Slayers, which was then actually heightened by the kung fu he had learned when it was restored right before the final battle of Spider-Island. Captain America also taught him some fighting skills when he first became an Avenger, mainly focusing himself mentally so that he wouldn't be going off on instinct all the time, and he actually used that skill to catch a bullet . . . except the other one went through his hand and all the way up his arm until it exited through his shoulder. Then again, that might be an outlier, as he hasn't exactly replicated it since, likely for lack of regular access to bulletproof armor. That said, while his kung fu skills do supplement if not add to the formidability that his powers already give him, I can understand that those powers might not be enough to significantly compensate for the gap in fighting skill between him and Cass.

Absolutely, and I want to clarify: I'm not saying Peter is unskilled. I'm saying there is a pretty big skill gap (much like saying 'there is a gap in physicality between Peter and Cass' isn't saying Cass is slow and weak).

Peter is plenty skilled - a bloody lifetime of experience fighting, and yep, some solid training from masters. It's just...he's not on the same level as those masters. He's not, for example, on the level of Captain America, skillwise, and Cap isn't as skilled as Cass.

There's a gap, is all. Normally, that wouldn't be enough; Cass, even more skilled, is NOT beating Peter in hand to hand (he's too fast, too tough, and waaaaay too strong). She's not going to be insta-punched into unconsciousness, but she's not winning.

Here, we add that gap to the massive upgrade the Cass-umi gear gives her, and yeah, there's the potential for her to win. Mileage, etc.

[Huntsman Spider]

Absolutely, and I want to clarify: I'm not saying Peter is unskilled. I'm saying there is a pretty big skill gap (much like saying 'there is a gap in physicality between Peter and Cass' isn't saying Cass is slow and weak).

Peter is plenty skilled - a bloody lifetime of experience fighting, and yep, some solid training from masters. It's just...he's not on the same level as those masters. He's not, for example, on the level of Captain America, skillwise, and Cap isn't as skilled as Cass.

There's a gap, is all. Normally, that wouldn't be enough; Cass, even more skilled, is NOT beating Peter in hand to hand (he's too fast, too tough, and waaaaay too strong). She's not going to be insta-punched into unconsciousness, but she's not winning.

Here, we add that gap to the massive upgrade the Cass-umi gear gives her, and yeah, there's the potential for her to win. Mileage, etc.

I understand. Sounds like it'll be a pretty great fight either way. Someone's gotta illustrate that sometime. Any artists in particular you can think of that would be able to do that?

[The Chou Lives]

Not to mention Night Crawler has failed to tag Peter and he was trying, Spider even insulted him about it.