War Of The Realms Event!

[GodThor]

Why would I change my mind on that? You clearly haven’t.

change your mind about what???

not liking my opinion???

[JKtheMac]

change you mind about what???
not liking my opinion???

I think you know. Why would I change my mind about not thinking there is a good reason to complain about Jane being Thor?

Aside from ‘I want my guy back’ which I have always sympathised with but not had empathy for, I don’t see a reason. I have asked the question many times and the answers have always been variations of ‘my guy’ with embellishments that don’t seem to add anything and often exaggerate what was happening for rhetorical impact.

[GodThor]

I think you know. Why would I change my mind about not thinking there is a good reason to complain about Jane being Thor?

Aside from ‘I want my guy back’ which I have always sympathised with but not had empathy for, I don’t see a reason. I have asked the question many times and the answers have always been variations of ‘my guy’ with embellishments that don’t seem to add anything and often exaggerate what was happening for rhetorical impact.

except that's not the point.

the point is, you cannot change people's view on things or call it a wrong view.

if I view Thor as incredibly badly written now then that will stay.

you can stand there and write entire paragraphs on how you think it's written and how wrong I am but the fact remains - it's MY opinion.

[JKtheMac]

yes it did, are you being serious right now?

Yes. I think I have made the point pretty clear now. If you don’t get my point then I am not going to restate it anymore. This is a story structure issue. You keep arguing from an entirely different perspective. I don’t need to address that perspective it was my point in the first place.

There have been oh so many stories where a protag "starts" or "answers the call" of the story and ends up dead or not there for the end, also natural ways to progress/end a story.

Yes but not this one.

no, go back to my original post(s) and you'll see my issues with jane are in the context of the current event/latest issue. I NEVER said "lots of characters would be better suited to being thor", i said SIF would be the better character (amongst others) to being the ALL-MOTHER... read what I'm writing mate.

I corrected this point and it was cross posted.

[JKtheMac]

except that's not the point.

the point is, you cannot change people's view on things or call it a wrong view.

if I view Thor as incredibly badly written now then that will stay.

you can stand there and write entire paragraphs on how you think it's written and how wrong I am but the fact remains - it's MY opinion.

And I don’t deny you of your opinion. But I do challenge some of the points you make that seem from my perspective to assert the work is not valid.

[GodThor]

And I don’t deny you of your opinion. But I do challenge some of the points you make that seem from my perspective to assert the work is not valid.

I'll call it how I see it fam.

if I say he favors Jane over Thor then that's how it is in my eyes.

[JKtheMac]

I'll call it how I see it fam.

if I say he favors Jane over Thor then that's how it is in my eyes.

And I clearly said

It isn’t worth trying to convince someone that thinks Aaron is deliberately elevating Jane over Thor that they are wrong. He obviously isn’t doing that. I understand why to some it might look like that but arguing about it is cyclical. I should know, I tried.

And then we proceeded to have the cyclical argument anyway. What can I say. I think it is obvious and I think you are wrong, but that is not the same as denying you your opinion.

[GodThor]

And I clearly said

It isn’t worth trying to convince someone that thinks Aaron is deliberately elevating Jane over Thor that they are wrong. He obviously isn’t doing that. I understand why to some it might look like that but arguing about it is cyclical. I should know, I tried.

And then we proceeded to have the cyclical argument anyway. What can I say. I think it is obvious and I think you are wrong, but that is not the same as denying you your opinion.

funny because I remember this quote from you

Well there is actually a solution. Stop reading it like that. There is another way to read it. I am the proof of that.

He is writing a story about Thor Odinson's worthiness and for a long while that was the story of a mortal lifting the hammer as a way of examining what worthiness is. As to "out of character" that's all totally perspective. Do you honestly think Aaron hasn't got a handle on continuity by now? What I have been reading these last six years since he picked up his pen on God of Thunder has been respectful of continuity. That's my well researched opinion.

it's basically saying that my reading is lacking and how I view things is wrong so I should be like you.

that's not how things go man.

you can't tell someone how to read it so that he might like it.

that's impossible.

[voidox]

Yes. I think I have made the point pretty clear now. If you don’t get my point then I am not going to restate it anymore. This is a story structure issue. You keep arguing from an entirely different perspective. I don’t need to address that perspective it was my point in the first place.

first off, some general advice for you mate, people have many different perspectives on things, if you want to argue or debate, you should at least try to understand their perspective and stop acting like any perspective but your own is wrong -_-

Back on topic, I addressed your point about story structure. Story structure is just another term for plot, i.e. series of events and it includes characters, setting, and themes.

Again, I addressed how even if you want to look only at story structure, jane is still not the "key" or "her war". I'm arguing using facts and points on what has happened in the comic issues, you keep mentioning perspectives as if perspective will change the facts.

facts like Jane is no longer thor, jane was made all-mother and not sif, jane was not the only character dealing with Malekith's war, jane was not the only one calling for action, jane was not there at the start of the war, malekith never made this war about jane, thor is the main protagonist not jane, other character's dealings with Malekith, other realms and on and on and on.

we all have opinions on these points, positive or negative, but the facts/points themselves are there.

but w.e.... you continue to ignore my points, have barely addressed any of the specific points I've made, hell, I doubt you've read most of em... keep sticking to the jane being thor point only and continuing to act like my opinion(s) and what I dislike is just me having the wrong perspective... and keep on taking your opinions as fact and correct :/

Yes but not this one.

... says you

didn't know Aaron personally contacted you and informed you about his thoughts and intentions and how the story will end, real Pog stuff mate :0

I corrected this point and it was cross posted.

I said: as a side note though, used Jane? replace jane foster with any character taking up Thor's hammer... hell, keep the story with Thor and we'd end up in the same place... don't see how Jane is special in any way.

I wasn't saying there were better characters to becoming thor than jane, I meant that you could replace jane with anyone and the entire story would end up in the same place as it is now.. jane is not special or vital to this war or progress of the story.

[voidox]

it's basically saying that my reading is lacking and how I view things is wrong so I should be like you.

that's not how things go man.

you can't tell someone how to read it so that he might like it.

that's impossible.

aye, he keeps bringing up perspective to try and deflect any of criticisms and points, somehow our perspectives are wrong and we're just too dumb so we can't see things in his grand perspective where everything is good and perfect -_-

[JKtheMac]

first off, some general advice for you mate, people have many different perspectives on things, if you want to argue or debate, you should at least try to understand their perspective and stop acting like any perspective but your own is wrong -_-

Please stop accusing me. I made a statement you didn’t like that’s all. I am really not sure why you are trying to get me to argue on your terms a point that I made and you disagree with. That’s not how argument works.

Back on topic, I addressed your point about story structure. Story structure is just another term for plot, i.e. series of events and it includes characters, setting, and themes.

No, story structure isn’t plot.

we all have opinions on these points, positive or negative, but the facts/points themselves are there.

You are arguing over my shoulder. My point has absolutely nothing to do with any of these facts. It is entirely to do with Aaron’s chosen structure. You are warping my point beyond recognition. I was making the point that we shouldn’t be surprised that this is how he chose to end the war because it was apparent in the way he structured the story. Again not plot.

but w.e.... you continue to ignore my points, have barely addressed any of the specific points I've made, hell, I doubt you've read most of em... keep sticking to the jane being thor point only and continuing to act like my opinion(s) and what I dislike is just me having the wrong perspective... and keep on taking your opinions as fact and correct :/

I am not ignoring the points. They just have nothing to do with mine. They are not counterpoints to my argument they are tangential.

I wasn't saying there were better characters to becoming thor than jane, I meant that you could replace jane with anyone and the entire story would end up in the same place as it is now.. jane is not special or vital to this war or progress of the story.

Because you persist on seeing everything as plot. The point of the story was to put a mortal in the place of Thor. I agree it wouldn’t matter too much who, but you went further and said we could have kept Thor. That’s not true. The themes and structure of the story Aaron has been telling necessitated a mortal. Jane helped tease out a few other lesser issues which is presumably why Aaron chose her.

[voidox]

Please stop accusing me. I made a statement you didn’t like that’s all. I am really not sure why you are trying to get me to argue on your terms a point that I made and you disagree with. That’s not how argument works.

whaaaaa? accuse you? pointing out what you're doing = accusing?

you made a statement bringing up perspectives and how anyone that has issues with jane just has the "wrong perspective" and have yet to address the ACTUAL issues people have with jane: like her leading people, jane giving permission for thor to be thor, her becoming the all-mother instead of Sif, her "asgard is mine" line, her and roz defeating minotaur, Valk dying just so Jane can be solo valk and on and on I can go. You continue to just brush this all off with nonsense and only bring up how you've been defending jane for years -_-

Even now you refuse to address GodThor's or my points on your post about perspectives~

and this is exactly how arguments work mate, you made a point and I countered with my own... wtf does terms have to do with this? We disagree but you don't seem ready to want to debate anything, you just want to make sure everyone knows that you are right, rest of us have the wrong perspective and your opinions = facts :/

instead of ignoring my points, why not try and address them rather than go off on your own thing?

You said this is about "story structure" and have not bothered to expand on that at all or state what exactly you meant by it... when I addressed ALL your points about it (one by one btw), you ignored everything I wrote and can't even be bothered to tell me what you find wrong with my post... you just continue to say this is about story structure and perspective and that's it.

No, story structure isn’t plot.

I said story structure is another term for plot, i.e. involves series or the sequence of events in a story and it includes characters, setting, and themes. So if I'm wrong or am using the wrong definition... how about telling me that I'm wrong and maybe, oh I dunno, informing me what your definition is so we know wtf you're talking about.

though i probably lack the perspective to understand what you mean by story structure eh~

You are arguing over my shoulder. My point has absolutely nothing to do with any of these facts. It is entirely to do with Aaron’s chosen structure. You are warping my point beyond recognition.

you keep changing your point mate, it's gone from issues with Jane in the current event to issues with Jane as thor to you knowing jane as thor would be amazing and defending it for years to how entire event is "jane's war" or "her story" to how aaron's run is "greatness" and so on... every time I address your posts LINE BY LINE, you ignore most of my points and just bring up something else.

I was making the point that we shouldn’t be surprised that this is how he chose to end the war because it was apparent in the way he structured the story. Again not plot.

so we are on your structure point now... okay... let's see:

you have yet again failed to explain how the story structure has always showed the war to end in this way, no examples or story beats to bring up, you're just saying it does this, it's so apparent and we should take your word for it. And I've brought up, multiple times now, how jane is not unique or special to the events of the war such that its "her war" or w.e.

But keep on ignoring shit so I remain with no idea what events or the way he structured the story that you are talking about... I guess I'll just keep guessing your side of the argument~

I am not ignoring the points. They just have nothing to do with mine. They are not counterpoints to my argument they are tangential.

you are ignoring my points, you're literally doing that in every post you've made in reply to mine... do I have to quote some of my own words that you've ignored? I am taking your points LINE BY LINE and giving my view/answer/counter/point and the next time you've posted you ignore most of it.

e.g. how about when you brought up LOTR or star wars? how about when you brought up how jane was "there on that day"? how about when you said it was "her war"? how about when you said "look at things as string of events, it shows her story"?

these, and every other point you've made, I have written at least 1-2 lines of reply... you can't even be bothered to say my reply was wrong (god forbid you then try and correct me or give your opinion), you just ignore it.

as a side note, you've brought up many tangential points (e.g defending Jane since her run started, defending her in other threads, perspective point to deflect all issues, star wars/lotr and so on) and I still replied to em, but if I bring up something not 100% direct to your point, you are going to just ignore it? what?

The point of the story was to put a mortal in the place of Thor. I agree it wouldn’t matter too much who, but you went further and said we could have kept Thor. That’s not true. The themes and structure of the story Aaron has been telling necessitated a mortal.

yes, Aaron's run has had a few different overarching themes and plots, one of the major ones is indeed the value of gods, thor's worthiness and having a mortal in place of thor

but none of those point matter to the story of THE WAR OF THE REALMS, cause in terms of the war, Thor with or without his hammer has little do with Malekith slaughtering realms, wanting to conquer everything and thor trying to stop him.

you ignore context of what we're talking about... I made that point of replacing jane talking about the war cause that's what this thread is about, the war of the realms.... and how if you had anyone in place of Jane, the war would end up where it is now: Malekith having conquered other realms and now coming for midgard.

Keeping Thor around would indeed be different, he'd have ended the war long before it could go anywhere

Jane helped tease out a few other lesser issues which is presumably why Aaron chose her.

putting aside you not bothering to even mention what "lesser issues" you mean.... I just don't see it man... replace Jane with any mortal and the same shit happens in terms of the whole worthiness and minor plots, there's nothing special or unique about her that you keep saying is why Aaron chose her... I dunno, I guess perspective does make sense here cause I just don't see it.

[kilderkin]

Pretty sure there is no ‘humans are better than gods’ subtext here. It has always been about whether the gods are worthy of worship or respect. Whether they will step up and actually have a place in the universe that means something, or just stay mythical aliens that are hard to kill and make excuses to not get involved.

Nobody has ever hinted that humans are more powerful, just that the gods have not been a force for good.

The question shouldn’t be ‘why isn’t Odin stronger in this story’ it should be ‘why was he strong in any story’ in other words what has Odin done to deserve his power. We had a hint a while back that he actually made Earth despite canon usually suggesting Earth and humanity came first. Then recently there was a throwaway comment suggesting he remade the Earth. That maybe it was destroyed. That could potentially elevate Odin’s importance, but if he did this why has he kept quiet about that? I imagine we might get some insight into this in Avengers.

Why should the question be as you describe, I'm curious

Iean, why does his historical power need to be justifief more than why his current power is so low

I'm just curious as to why either question is more important than the other, they are both good questions

[kilderkin]

I think you know. Why would I change my mind about not thinking there is a good reason to complain about Jane being Thor?

Aside from ‘I want my guy back’ which I have always sympathised with but not had empathy for, I don’t see a reason. I have asked the question many times and the answers have always been variations of ‘my guy’ with embellishments that don’t seem to add anything and often exaggerate what was happening for rhetorical impact.

For me the reason was always a simple one, irrelevant to any alternative holding the hammer ( and I have said I've liked Aaron's work on Jane more than anything else from him,) they, bill, Eric, red, Jane, Dargo, are imo pale imitations

Pale because I don't really find them more interesting than real Thor, and i make no apologies for than term, and I find Thor and mjolnir as effectively one character, separately they are not as interesting for me nor as challenging for the writer to deal with and therefore produce work I'm interested in

Imo too often power deconstruction, or down selling is used to make a character more easy to handle, which for me reduced the point of top their epic power characters, there is a place for lower their, but that's not what I buy a Thor book for

Now Aaron's reasons for downscaling Thor and Odin might not be to make them easier to handle, but for me, the results the same

Alternative versions are ok for me for a short while, but ultimately I lose interest, I don't really care what happens to them whilst they are the alternative, I really don't feel there is a need for a better reason than 'i want my original back'

I'm not apologetic one bit about that,

Of course I appreciate others find alternative versions highly interesting, as has been demonstrated by James long tenure

Though I do feel Aaron's work or use rather has got a bit repetitive

Imo

[kilderkin]

And I clearly said

It isn’t worth trying to convince someone that thinks Aaron is deliberately elevating Jane over Thor that they are wrong. He obviously isn’t doing that. I understand why to some it might look like that but arguing about it is cyclical. I should know, I tried.

And then we proceeded to have the cyclical argument anyway. What can I say. I think it is obvious and I think you are wrong, but that is not the same as denying you your opinion.

I'm not sure if he's still doing it, but I think he clearly was doing just that, or to rephrase

He clearly is doing that

Or at least he was