War Of The Realms Event!

[lefthanded]

To be brutally honest I have never really appreciated Malekith and Aaron didn't really change that. He is fine as a villain / antagonist, but he feels a little underdeveloped. Aaron did some work to try and develop him and it allowed him to bring in certain themes, but when some critics have attacked the Malekith arc I find it hard to disagree because he is a little bland. On the other hand I don't really think this hurts the story being told because the story wasn't really about the villain.

I agree that Malekith has never been all too complelling - Villain wants death and destruction because .... he loves war? He always seemed one note and overpowered, such that Odin (who has historically been portrayed as Galactus level power) can be restrained by his magic. This entire arc dragged on too long - he was the villain even starting back with Jane Foster as Thor. The story beat continued to be - Dark Elves are threatening this place, heroes go to save the day, they manage to thwart his plans but not really. When War of the Realms began, I already thought the War of the Realms had already began. I don't think Malekith is the time of villain who can sustain years of storylines - he's a one note villain that is best served by minimum focus.


Overall, I have to say that I haven't really enjoyed any of the recent Marvel-wide Thor-focused crossover events. Siege, Fear Itself, and now this War of the Realms. Siege had compelling villains (Dark Avengers with Osborn fighting his inner demons and the mystery of Void) but the execution wasn't that good. Fear Itself had an overpowered villain Cul who is subsequently not that powerful in follow up stories.

[Daniel22]

Certainly at this early stage I am intrigued by the new status quo of
spoilers:

All-Father Thor

end of spoilers

I was clearly not expecting it and actively suggested in this thread that it wouldn’t happen. Admittedly it happened in a different way, and a very emotionally satisfying and character affirming manner.

Essentially, Aaron has taken what I was expecting, some kind of ‘Protector of the Realms’ role for the character, and given that a more natural title. The general nature of that role is something I was expecting, the specific isn’t. Indeed I wouldn’t be at all surprised if after trying it on for size he rejects it. Although that may be something that depends on conversations he has probably already had with the next writer and the editors.

The idea of Thor accepting his unworthy nature was something I didn’t have the nerve to suggest on these forums, after-all many have railed against the very idea of him not being worthy in the first place, and it is a cue for arguments I am tired of having. Clearly Aaron has more courage in his convictions. It’s a little bit of a mind twister that may need more exploration in the Omega issue and the forthcoming King Thor. It was always an option though. His issue was always psychological, and it needed a psychological solution. Does accepting ones own unworthiness but standing up for those who are unworthy define Thor now? Is this what makes him worthy? I guess that’s a question and a premise for more story.

On a small note, I like the way the inscription is now a gender neutral phrase, and I laughed when Ulik the ‘well named’ Troll voiced the ‘name not legacy’ claims in Avengers. It seems Aaron is equally sick of that one.

It was equally affirming that Thor acknowledges Jane as ‘Goddess of Thunder’ which is an important nuance of her story that many keep ignoring. She is counted as Thor by the others and by Malekith’s magic. Seems pretty clear that she actually was Thor.

I agree that we ended up, generally, in places many predicted (Odinson's role, as you pointed out... Jane re-powered, etc) but the specifics were different and surprising in good ways. I think there was only so much wiggle room in regards to an ending and Aaron did a good job of putting the toys back but in new and interesting poses. He certainly has given the next writer lots of interesting avenues to explore if they desire.

The biggest, and maybe best, surprise is that the unworthiness arc ended how it did. I didn't really see any way Aaron could go besides backwards to shining, worthy Odinson but I admire his willingness to deliver something else. Where he stands now is much more interesting than having Odinson just do a full loop. The idea of examining and redefining expectations fits nicely with his overall themes. Very fertile ground for new stories, as well.

[JKtheMac]

I agree that we ended up, generally, in places many predicted (Odinson's role, as you pointed out... Jane re-powered, etc) but the specifics were different and surprising in good ways. I think there was only so much wiggle room in regards to an ending and Aaron did a good job of putting the toys back but in new and interesting poses. He certainly has given the next writer lots of interesting avenues to explore if they desire.

The biggest, and maybe best, surprise is that the unworthiness arc ended how it did. I didn't really see any way Aaron could go besides backwards to shining, worthy Odinson but I admire his willingness to deliver something else. Where he stands now is much more interesting than having Odinson just do a full loop. The idea of examining and redefining expectations fits nicely with his overall themes. Very fertile ground for new stories, as well.

I have been admiring that willingness to go somewhere else since the beginning. This was never going to be a story that ‘put the toys back in the toybox’. I have seen enough transformative stories in my time to recognise one as it begins. When a writer asks a question about the status quo and the ways of seeing it are irreconcilable then this usually means a new solution will be presented. The ending will be a changed status quo.

I fundamentally agree with Alan Moore, in that I don’t believe that writers should put the toys back where they found them. I think that writers that do this are not really telling stories they are working for a marketing company. I mean they all are anyway these days, but that shouldn’t stop them doing the job of a storyteller.

[JKtheMac]

I agree that Malekith has never been all too complelling - Villain wants death and destruction because .... he loves war? He always seemed one note and overpowered, such that Odin (who has historically been portrayed as Galactus level power) can be restrained by his magic. This entire arc dragged on too long - he was the villain even starting back with Jane Foster as Thor. The story beat continued to be - Dark Elves are threatening this place, heroes go to save the day, they manage to thwart his plans but not really. When War of the Realms began, I already thought the War of the Realms had already began. I don't think Malekith is the time of villain who can sustain years of storylines - he's a one note villain that is best served by minimum focus.


Overall, I have to say that I haven't really enjoyed any of the recent Marvel-wide Thor-focused crossover events. Siege, Fear Itself, and now this War of the Realms. Siege had compelling villains (Dark Avengers with Osborn fighting his inner demons and the mystery of Void) but the execution wasn't that good. Fear Itself had an overpowered villain Cul who is subsequently not that powerful in follow up stories.

Well I have said elsewhere I don’t think the story was too dragged out. On Cul, Aaron took him to a fascinating place that worked for me. Turns out he wasn’t the god of what he thought he was.

[Daniel22]

I have been admiring that willingness to go somewhere else since the beginning. This was never going to be a story that ‘put the toys back in the toybox’. I have seen enough transformative stories in my time to recognise one as it begins. When a writer asks a question about the status quo and the ways of seeing it are irreconcilable then this usually means a new solution will be presented. The ending will be a changed status quo.

I fundamentally agree with Alan Moore, in that I don’t believe that writers should put the toys back where they found them. I think that writers that do this are not really telling stories they are working for a marketing company. I mean they all are anyway these days, but that shouldn’t stop them doing the job of a storyteller.

Moore is loony on some things but he's right on the money there imo. My favorite stories at Marvel and DC lately are the ones that make me forget that the writers are working for multinational corporations looking to scoop up some IPs and ideas for movies and TV. Some writers give off a feeling that they just really want to write this story, and if it happens to be at Marvel that's cool, they just want to get this story out into the world. Something like King's Vision felt like he would have written it and shoved it in a drawer if he couldn't sell it, he just needed to get it OUT. I think Aaron would have written this story somewhere if Marvel didn't want to publish it. It felt like he really wanted to explore some things and Asgard was the perfect place to do it but he needed to tell the story somewhere. I have no idea if that's true or not but that's the feeling I get. I'm really drawn to writers who give me that feeling of passion.

[JKtheMac]

Moore is loony on some things but he's right on the money there imo. My favorite stories at Marvel and DC lately are the ones that make me forget that the writers are working for multinational corporations looking to scoop up some IPs and ideas for movies and TV. Some writers give off a feeling that they just really want to write this story, and if it happens to be at Marvel that's cool, they just want to get this story out into the world. Something like King's Vision felt like he would have written it and shoved it in a drawer if he couldn't sell it, he just needed to get it OUT. I think Aaron would have written this story somewhere if Marvel didn't want to publish it. It felt like he really wanted to explore some things and Asgard was the perfect place to do it but he needed to tell the story somewhere. I have no idea if that's true or not but that's the feeling I get. I'm really drawn to writers who give me that feeling of passion.

Well he is clearly fascinated by some of the ideas. So much so he unconsciously put a lot of them into Southern Bastards and it took Latour to point out to him that he was kind of writing Thor over there too. So I guess that kind of proves your point.

I sometimes wonder if he has realised he was writing Wolverine over on The Goddamned.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well my take is that this isn't actually what Aaron was trying to say anyway. Well strained yes, douche no. He was simply equating their relationship to the kind of dysfunctional one many guys have with their fathers. If one had a great and unchallenging relationship with ones father than maybe one sees it differently. If one had an abusive relationship maybe it comes across as more challenging. I think Aaron was aiming between these two extremes. The awkward and in my experience very common, challenging and dysfunctional relationship.

He also chose to use him as an example of toxic masculinity. The hat seems to fit from where I am standing. There are multiple times in the past when he has acted belligerently, dangerously, as a frustrating father, as an annoying husband, frankly as an antagonist. Nothing new there.

I understand what Aaron was going for. I just don't think it fits that closely with what we've seen from Odin in the past. Where was all this toxic anger toward anyone else having the ability to wield Mjolnir when Beta Ray Bill first showed up? Not really apparent to me. As I recall, Odin was actually impressed with Bill's prowess as a warrior and ability to "wield great power and wield it wisely." So are we supposed to believe that Odin was so angry with Jane wielding Mjolnir simply because she's a woman? So, that would mean that Odin is just a sexist.

[JKtheMac]

I understand what Aaron was going for. I just don't think it fits that closely with what we've seen from Odin in the past. Where was all this toxic anger toward anyone else having the ability to wield Mjolnir when Beta Ray Bill first showed up? Not really apparent to me. As I recall, Odin was actually impressed with Bill's prowess as a warrior and ability to "wield great power and wield it wisely." So are we supposed to believe that Odin was so angry with Jane wielding Mjolnir simply because she's a woman? So, that would mean that Odin is just a sexist.

Beta-Ray Bill was self evidently a messiah. Jane was a mere mortal who previously Odin confessed to cheating out of her relationship with Thor. So he was pretty biased over her anyway. When Odin didn’t know who she was, which let’s face it was most of the time. His main concern was that she was using a hammer that didn’t belong to her. There is a long running theme of legitimacy in the subtext of the story. Questioning whether the gods are legitimate, which of Odin or Freyja are legitimate, whether someone that just picks up Mjölnir is legitimate. Odin questioning the legitimacy of a new Thor is pretty natural.

There is a fundamental problem with Thor criticism. Everyone always compares what they are reading to Simonson. On one level that is fine, after-all it is a classic run with a high profile and many believe great quality. The problem is that Simonson’s take is not representative of the rest of canon. No single run is. It is the one everyone has read and possibly read multiple times, but it is just as contradictory of the wider canon as everything else.

Aaron focuses his story, or at least the premise, on Lee and Kirby. Specifically that very first idea of a seeming mortal lifting Mjölnir. An element that Simonson disposed of utterly. Different stories, different messages. It is no wonder they don’t sit together perfectly. They ask different questions and are based on different ideas.

The fact that Simonson turned the page on Thor and moved on should, from my perspective, signal to fans that ambitious writers with something to say should feel confident to do the same. Aaron did this. His detractors seem confused that his run will now be held up as one of the three or four great runs. Some will consider it the greatest. That is not taking anything away from older runs. We should be less nostalgic and embrace change.

[JKtheMac]

Some more thoughts on tie-ins

The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #46
The problem I always have when I read this book is I know it isn’t aimed at me. But it is undoubtedly excellent. The wrap up to this story is as always educational on multiple levels, excellently rendered in an very accessible kids cartoon style, silly in a fun way and full of character. Is it necessary reading for anyone following this event? No. It isn’t trying to be. It does explain why their resistance efforts made the Frost Giants go home instead of fight, and that in itself is quite funny and serious at the same time. Would that have worked in a different book? No, but this is a child friendly book, introducing ideas to think about or discuss. The final status quo for our shape-shifting Ratatoskr is inspired. She could easily turn up in a more ‘serious’ book and not feel out of place.

WotR Punisher #3
From an inspired book to… well this didn’t inspire me. There was early promise with great art, but still the book hamstrings itself by focusing on a claustrophobic conflict with very few of the denizens that were so perfectly rendered in the first issue. Ferreira does get to draw the odd troll, which he is great at, and some fire goblins, which are not quite as well rendered. Frank is undeniably psychotic again which is the main reason I avoid his stories and a reason to avoid this one if you don’t think murder is fun.

WotR Agents of Atlas #4
I really lost the ability to focus on this one and had to keep skipping back so I could at least comment on it. There was a bit of a twist. The logic seemed OK. Some of the characterisation seemed interesting, and it sets up a new series. I won’t be reading it because I just couldn’t get into it. Really not a lot going on in the wider war, aside from this is how Sindr is taken out. The comic works, it just isn’t very compelling. The art is on balance good. A little posed and static in places but elsewhere quite dynamic. The rendering of Sindr is quite nice, but made me wish Dauterman could be cloned and set to work on all of the crossovers. Your mileage may vary on this one. It was the kind of solid superheroics for their own sake that many say they want. Careful what you wish for.

WotR Uncanny X-Men #3
Surprisingly similar to AoA above for me. I wasn’t really feeling the Rahne story because it felt predictable. It went the way we would expect but it didn’t really feel earned. It was just an arbitrary choice. At least they didn’t waste Magik. She felt like a McGuffin early on but she did actually end up integral to the resolution. True to form recently another X-Men character gets taken out. Dani mourns him and the valkyrjur with some poignancy and a suggestion that she might lose touch with her Valkyrie side. The story still doesn’t give us any hints as to why she exists in two realities at the moment. Overall, OK but only a minor skirmish in the wider war.

WotR JitM #5
Well this was a road-trip and it ended. Perhaps I should say more? Not much to say really. I expected it to matter more to the resolution of the wider event but it didn’t. It ended better than some of the parts along the way. The overall resolution is fun enough. Thori laying in a hammock being scratched by Miles is cute. The simple rendering and linework is quite effective. The dialogue was more focused. Was the trip worth it? Well, nominally some of the strands were pulled together but overall I think this is totally skippable.

Superior Spider-Man #8
I could just rewrite what I said about #7. It was kind of interesting that they caught up with one of the Strikeforce teams. There is a little bit of characterisation and growth for Spock. Overall I end up really disliking him and I never did in the original title. Tangential at best. I can only imagine how this fits into the wider arc and I won't be finding out.

--

On reflection maybe Unbeatable Squirrel Girl is for me after-all!

[Mike_Murdock]

If you were to pick a list of tie-ins that were either good or relevant (with an emphasis on both), which would you say?

I felt like, when reading this event, that I had to be missing parts of the story. But I was also surprised at how irrelevant Avengers seemed to the whole thing considering Jason Aaron was writing it.

[JKtheMac]

If you were to pick a list of tie-ins that were either good or relevant (with an emphasis on both), which would you say?

I felt like, when reading this event, that I had to be missing parts of the story. But I was also surprised at how irrelevant Avengers seemed to the whole thing considering Jason Aaron was writing it.

Hmm. I mean really the core event and the Strikeforce issues are the key ones. Even the Thor issues are not essential, but to really care about the event one would probably be reading that title and I consider all three to be great and somewhat relevant. The DD story in Warscrolls is kind of important but not majorly.

In each of my little reviews in this thread I tried to give a sense of whether they were relevant. I didn't touch on everything I read and I am still getting up the fortitude to read Deadpool.

I mean there are 63 issues if you include the irrelevant Thor 3D issue so there is a lot you can skip. I think it is partly based on taste more than anything. Do you want to read about the wider Thor universe turning up in other books. If so pick the ones you already like. Are you intrigued by any of the references to the wider war? Maybe take a look at the relevant books.

Its a hub and spoke book really. The hub is obviously the main event, around those are the Strikeforce, Warscrolls, Thor and to some extent AotG books that flesh out some of the action, then around those there are minis and tie-ins that focus on specific arenas but don't really impact the main event in any meaningful way other than to tell the story of a wider war.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Beta-Ray Bill was self evidently a messiah. Jane was a mere mortal who previously Odin confessed to cheating out of her relationship with Thor. So he was pretty biased over her anyway. When Odin didn’t know who she was, which let’s face it was most of the time. His main concern was that she was using a hammer that didn’t belong to her. There is a long running theme of legitimacy in the subtext of the story. Questioning whether the gods are legitimate, which of Odin or Freyja are legitimate, whether someone that just picks up Mjölnir is legitimate. Odin questioning the legitimacy of a new Thor is pretty natural.

Aaron focuses his story, or at least the premise, on Lee and Kirby. Specifically that very first idea of a seeming mortal lifting Mjölnir. An element that Simonson disposed of utterly. Different stories, different messages. It is no wonder they don’t sit together perfectly. They ask different questions and are based on different ideas.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. Beta Ray Bill was still mortal, a superstrong alien mortal, but still mortal and an outsider to Asgard. So, why would Odin seemingly accept Bill without question and even in some respect bend over backwards to accommodate him but then instantly shun Jane?

In fact, the idea that Odin is just vehemently opposed to a mortal lifting Mjolnir is not just refuted by the first appearance of Beta Ray Bill, but also by Lee and Kirby themselves. For example, in Thor #159, which lays out their origin for Thor, Odin sends Thor to Midgard in the guise of Donald Blake because he believes that living among the mortals and learning to care for them will teach Thor an important lesson: humility. That doesn't seem to be the actions of someone who looks down on mortals or thinks of them as lesser.

I think, from the context of the story, its obvious what Aaron was going for with Odin. He was meant to be the stand-in for toxic masculinity and those with sexist attitudes that would be suspicious of a woman assuming any mantle that once belonged to a man. And, while that's actually a key part of the story Aaron was telling and it is in fact appropriate to refute those sexist notions and ideas, I just don't believe it lines up with Odin's classic characterization. And, yes, that includes the Simonson run, but not just the Simonson run. It probably would have been better suited for another character.

[JKtheMac]

Just realised you also said what was good.

I think the Avengers books are good character studies, the F4 book is good and visually stunning, Iron Man is great comics, Giant-Man was interesting but too long, the first of the Punisher series is utterly gorgeous to look at.

AotG is not great but kind of important to those who follow the Asgardians etc. Squirrel Girl is a very well done all-ages comic, Captain Marvel is fun and lets you know how The Enchantress fits in.

Everything else outside the hub is average to poor.

[JKtheMac]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. Beta Ray Bill was still mortal, a superstrong alien mortal, but still mortal and an outsider to Asgard. So, why would Odin seemingly accept Bill without question and even in some respect bend over backwards to accommodate him but then instantly shun Jane?

Beta-Ray Bill is mortal is he? Not fully sure about that. Canonically he was created to carry the burden of his people. He is a science fiction version of a god.

I think, from the context of the story, its obvious what Aaron was going for with Odin. He was meant to be the stand-in for toxic masculinity and those with sexist attitudes that would be suspicious of a woman assuming any mantle that once belonged to a man. And, while that's actually a key part of the story Aaron was telling and in fact appropriate to refute those sexist notions and ideas, I just don't believe it lines up with Odin's classic characterization, which yes includes the Simonson run, but not just the Simonson run.

Well I wouldn't put it quite so forcefully because I don't think Aaron does. I am on record for example of claiming Thor #10 is one of the best Thor comics ever written. Yes it is partly about toxic masculinity, but that doesn't make Odin a villain. I felt very empathetic towards him. Indeed I always have throughout Aaron's run. Part of 'lining up with characterisation' is entirely on the reader. You have to make those connections and draw your own lines. There is no roadmap. Canon is not clear-cut. Even in Lee/Kirby Odin switched back and forth from being an ally and an antagonist. Kirby was actively talking about changing that and splitting him into two characters, one good one bad. Most Kirby scholars and fans (including Simonson BTW) think that the New Gods are pretty much a reflection of how he wanted to do that.

In fact, the idea that Odin is just vehemently opposed to a mortal lifting Mjolnir is not just refuted by the first appearance of Beta Ray Bill, but also Lee and Kirby themselves. For example, in Thor #159, which lays out their origin for Thor, Odin sends Thor to Midgard in the guise of Donald Blake because he believes that living among the mortals and learning to care for them will teach Thor an important lesson: humility. That doesn't seem to be the actions of someone who looks down on mortals or thinks of them as lesser.

Did I suggest this at any point? Where did I say he is 'vehemently against a mortal lifting the hammer'. It is this mortal he is against. It is a specific grudge but not based on sex, based on legitimacy. Odin clearly feels like someone is stealing his son's legacy and title, and without his blessing. That is his main concern. He seems to think Thor should just snap out of it and he most likely wants to reclaim the hammer to hold it for him to use. "The World needs a Thor" is not a sentiment he would agree with throughout much of canon. Also his reasoning for sending him to Earth was retconned by Thomas and he made it much less clear-cut.

Regardless, deep cuts on Thor Canon probably belong in the Thor appreciation thread. This event only really does one main thing with Jane as far as canon is concerned. Legitimise her as the Goddess Thor when she was holding Mjolnir. The rest is just story stuff.

With Thor himself it asserts he is back to who he was, but that he was never truly 'worthy' in the way he used to think. It kind of reframes the concept. It also subtly gives anyone writing from now on an out when it comes to how the enchantment works, because technically it probably isn't Odin's original enchantment but a new one placed there by Thor as he reforged it. Again up to a new writer to explore as they wish. Lastly it leaves any notion of whether the Mother of Storms is still in there up to the following writers. They could claim it went away, they could claim it put itself inside, they can legitimately forget all about it as a side issue.

[brettc1]

Just finished reading the completed story.

This was pretty good. Felt like it could have gone for one more issue - of the crossover events I enjoyed Captain Marvel and the Spider-Man stories the most.

Nice to see Thor FINALLY got Mjolnir back, and the inscription finally being gender neutral. The final reforging was nicely done, with Thor sacrificing his hold on the hammer in order to regain it. Still not sold on the whole premise of him losing in the first place but he has it back now so.. whatever. LOL.

Only one thing kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth, and sadly it was right at the end. Aaron continues to write a really awful version of Odin.