(Punisher) - Not How He "Roles" - article from November 4, 2018 NY Daily News

[Ascended]

With regards to the bolded, the kind of gear used by the Punisher in his one-man "war on crime" is usually reserved for soldiers in actual wars, which is at least half the problem with too many in modern policing and law enforcement. A lot of them labor under the belief that they're "at war" with the criminal element, while in actuality, they end up waging war against the very communities they're supposed to be serving and protecting.

Oh, the militarization of our police forces is definitely an issue, and just one of many. And those issues often go much further than just cops, and straight into the heart of society.

But man, soldiers in war time rarely have the kind of hardware Frank lugs around! Of course, who'd be able to actually walk, carrying that much high-end ordnance all at once? lol

[theoneandonly]

.According to Whedon's reasoning, the Punisher is a fascistic power fantasy, insofar as "he never hits an innocent, even by accident or mistake, and his targets are always and only the bad people who deserve to die and die horribly." In the real world, such as it is, a Punisher-style vigilante would eventually kill an innocent person, or at bare minimum someone who had nothing to do with the crime s/he was killed for, and there would be a lot more collateral damage. Not that I fully agree with writing off the Punisher as a mere fascist power fantasy, but I can see the reasoning, especially if you've got people taking up his mantle in real life with no regard for the scruples, such as they are, of the character himself, or that the whole thing is a fantasy in the first place.

he is correct in all his views but then you may argue that all superheroes are one bad day away from crossing the line as evident in injustice civil war spider man hitting/violently brushing mj off when in a berserker rage, the Apocalypse twins manipulating the avengers (rouge murdering scarlet witch was the catalyst) to bring about a horrible reality/timeline, Bruce snapping and trying to kill the Riddler in the war of joke and riddles and the joker of all people stopping him, nightwing killing the joker in last laugh; the list goes on. Not that this excuses Frank's vigilantism but then all the Superheroes are vigilantes and one step away from transforming into the punisher. true there are stories where they are bloodied but unbowed refusing to compromise their principles like peter refusing to cross over and join Norman even though he tries his best after kidnapping and torturing him but then again Spider man also has blood on his hands when he punched charlie who thus committed "suicide" so does Captain America( he has killed some of flag smashers men in one issue) who in one issue while musing declares that the day he takes a single life would be the day he makes a mockery of the name of Captain America, Hawkeye having killied the hulk after giving endless grief to mockingbird for allowing the phantom Rider to die during their fight even after he raped her etc. thus sometimes the Superheroes are put into situations where they can't help but break the law or take it in their hands. that of course is far different from the punisher who kills indiscriminately but it feels that sometimes there is a thin line separating him from other vigilantes. thus it would be as well that the cold light of reason not be applied to the various characters and accept the tropes associated with them if you want to enjoy them and not get critical of them from a real world viewpoint as none of them would stand up to such scrutiny. they should be regarded as medium of entertainment and not fictious idols to be emulated.

[chamber-music]

Most comic book superheroes and anti-heroes are a power fantasy when you get down to it.

Vigilantes taking justice into their own hands and acting with impunity. For all the talk of rule of law superheroes regularly break the law.

Hero worshiping someone like the Punisher is morally questionable but so is hero worshiping most violent vigilante superhero types. Heroes like Daredevil and Batman jumping out the shadows to kick the snot out of suspected criminals isn't right either.

[Huntsman Spider]

Oh, the militarization of our police forces is definitely an issue, and just one of many. And those issues often go much further than just cops, and straight into the heart of society.

But man, soldiers in war time rarely have the kind of hardware Frank lugs around! Of course, who'd be able to actually walk, carrying that much high-end ordnance all at once? lol

I stand corrected, but if you're referring to the militarization of society as a whole, I'm tempted to bring up the entire Call of Duty franchise, or the genre of military-based/inspired first-person shooters as a whole, though at least Spec Ops: The Line attempted to deconstruct it.

he is correct in all his views but then you may argue that all superheroes are one bad day away from crossing the line as evident in injustice civil war spider man hitting/violently brushing mj off when in a berserker rage, the Apocalypse twins manipulating the avengers (rouge murdering scarlet witch was the catalyst) to bring about a horrible reality/timeline, Bruce snapping and trying to kill the Riddler in the war of joke and riddles and the joker of all people stopping him, nightwing killing the joker in last laugh; the list goes on. Not that this excuses Frank's vigilantism but then all the Superheroes are vigilantes and one step away from transforming into the punisher. true there are stories where they are bloodied but unbowed refusing to compromise their principles like peter refusing to cross over and join Norman even though he tries his best after kidnapping and torturing him but then again Spider man also has blood on his hands when he punched charlie who thus committed "suicide" so does Captain America( he has killed some of flag smashers men in one issue) who in one issue while musing declares that the day he takes a single life would be the day he makes a mockery of the name of Captain America, Hawkeye having killied the hulk after giving endless grief to mockingbird for allowing the phantom Rider to die during their fight even after he raped her etc. thus sometimes the Superheroes are put into situations where they can't help but break the law or take it in their hands. that of course is far different from the punisher who kills indiscriminately but it feels that sometimes there is a thin line separating him from other vigilantes. thus it would be as well that the cold light of reason not be applied to the various characters and accept the tropes associated with them if you want to enjoy them and not get critical of them from a real world viewpoint as none of them would stand up to such scrutiny. they should be regarded as medium of entertainment and not fictious idols to be emulated.

Very good points as well. As much as we can pillory the Punisher for being a problematic fantasy, in truth he may well just not have or use the same "excuses" that the other/actual superheroes around him do, and that's something to be raised for discussion as well.

Most comic book superheroes and anti-heroes are a power fantasy when you get down to it.

Vigilantes taking justice into their own hands and acting with impunity. For all the talk of rule of law superheroes regularly break the law.

Hero worshiping someone like the Punisher is morally questionable but so is hero worshiping most violent vigilante superhero types. Heroes like Daredevil and Batman jumping out the shadows to kick the snot out of suspected criminals isn't right either.

Actually a pretty good point, too. Just because Daredevil and Batman don't explicitly kill their targets doesn't mean said targets don't end up with permanent or lasting injuries, and if you take it to a certain logical extreme, all superheroes are potentially fascistic. Hell, sometimes they're explicitly fascistic, and it's mostly up to the writers (and maybe even the readers)whether they condone or condemn that.

[Ascended]

I stand corrected, but if you're referring to the militarization of society as a whole, I'm tempted to bring up the entire Call of Duty franchise, or the genre of military-based/inspired first-person shooters as a whole, though at least Spec Ops: The Line attempted to deconstruct it.

No, I'm not talking the militarization of society. I dont really feel like we're all that militarized, honestly. When one of the buzz words of your society is "safe space" I struggle to call the people "militarized," though certainly you always have those fools with their Armageddon bunkers who fancy themselves fighting men. Are we desensitized to violence? Absolutely. To a unfortunate degree. Radicalized? America does seem to have self-radicalized itself along a couple different ethical paths over the last twenty-ish years, and it seems that we're not the only nation doing so. I find that more troubling than anything. But video games? Bah. Many studies have tried for decades to prove the dangers of video games, rock and roll, and other social factors of that ilk, and have yet to find success.

[responsarbre]

Most comic book superheroes and anti-heroes are a power fantasy when you get down to it.

Vigilantes taking justice into their own hands and acting with impunity. For all the talk of rule of law superheroes regularly break the law.

Hero worshiping someone like the Punisher is morally questionable but so is hero worshiping most violent vigilante superhero types. Heroes like Daredevil and Batman jumping out the shadows to kick the snot out of suspected criminals isn't right either.

That's true, but there's something to be said for how law enforcement and military idolize the Punisher specifically, above all else. Out of an entire genre of fascist power fantasies, they choose to identify with the one character that takes it so far that the other icons of fascist machismo see him as a villain? That makes it pretty bad.

As for the idea of people choosing to identify with him just because they're not as familiar with the comics, I feel like that also just makes it worse! It means that, at best, they just know the one-line description of the character: A vigilante who murders criminals. And they're choosing to associate themselves with that!

The level of disgust I feel when I see this sort of thing is hard to convey, considering the number of innocent people killed by the police and especially by the American military.

[Ptrvc]

That's true, but there's something to be said for how law enforcement and military idolize the Punisher specifically, above all else. Out of an entire genre of fascist power fantasies, they choose to identify with the one character that takes it so far that the other icons of fascist machismo see him as a villain? That makes it pretty bad.

As for the idea of people choosing to identify with him just because they're not as familiar with the comics, I feel like that also just makes it worse! It means that, at best, they just know the one-line description of the character: A vigilante who murders criminals. And they're choosing to associate themselves with that!

The level of disgust I feel when I see this sort of thing is hard to convey, considering the number of innocent people killed by the police and especially by the American military.

Here's an idea, why don't you let people like the fiction they like and stop looking down you're nose at them.

**** sake man, we all like comic books, but don't confuse them for real life, or criticize people's humanity because they have different tastes than you.