(Punisher) - Not How He "Roles" - article from November 4, 2018 NY Daily News

[MajorHoy]

Don't know if anybody else saw this article in the New York Daily News on Sunday, November 4th, but it seems a unit of the NYPD came out with a "Challenge Coin" that looks like the Punisher's skull symbol.

Good for morale or bad community relations? NYPD Gang Squad's use of The Punisher logo raises questions
By John Annese and Rocco Parascandola - Nov 04, 2018

Morale builder or bad optics?
The challenge coin for the NYPD’s Gang Squad is The Punisher, a blood-thirsty Marvel Comics vigilante whose co-creator said is no role model for police officers.
“Under the most positive framing, The Punisher is a very emotionally damaged criminal,” Gerry Conway, who helped come up with the character, told the Daily News. “He’s someone who breaks the law — takes the law into his own hands.
“This is exactly what we do not need as police officers,” Conway added. “He is not intended as a role model.”
Challenge coins have grown in popularity among cops in recent years. They’re bought, traded and often handed out as gifts at department functions.
Just last month, for instance, coins commemorating Domestic Violence Awareness Month were handed out at One Police Plaza.
The Gang Squad coin, for sale on eBay for $9.99, is dominated by The Punisher logo, a white skull with long teeth.
The Punisher, a Marvel character created in 1974, is an ex-Marine who turns into vigilante when his family was murdered. It has been turned into a popular Netflix series starring Jon Bernthal and its logo has been informally adopted by various military units.

You cane read the rest of the article here:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...102-story.html

NOTE: The thread's title was what they had as the article's title in the copy of the newspaper I first saw it in.

[Rosebunse]

I can't for the life of me understand why military people and cops love the Punisher. He isn't a happy person, his tale is meant to be tragic. Yes, also cool, but not exactly one anyone should want.

[Tycon]

And people are confused when we say police are corrupt. Why would you ever co-opt a symbol of militant vigilantism??? Especially during such times where police brutality is well known in mainstream news?????

[Rosebunse]

And people are confused when we say police are corrupt. Why would you ever co-opt a symbol of militant vigilantism??? Especially during such times where police brutality is well known in mainstream news?????

To be fair, most of these cops aren't one of us. They're poser fans who probably didn't even watch the TV show.

[SuperiorIronman]

You would think that the Punisher wouldn't be a role model for the military or Police (especially them) and yet here we are.

[Huntsman Spider]

You would think that the Punisher wouldn't be a role model for the military or Police (especially them) and yet here we are.

I can almost see it. In a lot of Punisher comics, a number of cops are written as secretly supporting him because he "cleans up the streets" in ways that they, as hamstrung as they are by lawful procedures, cannot. The fantasy of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that your targets are always guilty, always scum, always deserving of a brutal end is one that is extremely appealing to a lot of people, as an extremely simple solution to a problem that is actually extremely complex.

[Tycon]

To be fair, most of these cops aren't one of us. They're poser fans who probably didn't even watch the TV show.

You dont need to be a fan to know the surface level of Punisher's character. Especially if you are comfortable enough to put his insignia on your vehicles and uniforms.

[SuperiorIronman]

I can almost see it. In a lot of Punisher comics, a number of cops are written as secretly supporting him because he "cleans up the streets" in ways that they, as hamstrung as they are by lawful procedures, cannot. The fantasy of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that your targets are always guilty, always scum, always deserving of a brutal end is one that is extremely appealing to a lot of people, as an extremely simple solution to a problem that is actually extremely complex.

And at the end of the day, that isn't even meeting the concept halfway. The Punisher is wrong. Nobody should, and nobody should ever want to be the Punisher. The Punisher is at his core a mass murderer whom all criminals are guilty of death in his eyes. He is an ideologically motivated mass shooter. Cleaning up the streets is an incredibly vague definition for a form of justice as well. It's ironic as a result when you consider that a massive problem in the United states is what to do with Mass shooters/murderers and how to curb gun violence. Things that if better treated would not create the Punisher in the first place.

[MajorHoy]

In case anybody here didn't already know (or is too young to remember), the creation of the Punisher (first appearance = Amazing Spider-Man #129, cover-dated February 1974) was preceded by the book series The Executioner, originally written by Don Pendleton. The Executioner is Mack Bolan, a Vietnam War veteran who is fighting a war against the Mafia. The first book in the series was published in 1969.

[Drops Of Venus]

The fantasy of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that your targets are always guilty, always scum, always deserving of a brutal end is one that is extremely appealing to a lot of people, as an extremely simple solution to a problem that is actually extremely complex.

This right here. Specially during those hard, divisive political times, I've noticed that the Punisher has become a symbol of what some people see as ''righteousness''. As a brazilian, I saw his name being dragged into political discussions quite a few times within the geek community, with people comparing him to the current far-right sentiment we have in the country. There's even this popular saying in Brazil right now that claims ''a good criminal is a dead criminal'', and there is A LOT of people who genuinely believe in that as a justice system. I'm not surprised at all Frank Castle would become a role model to people who think like that. Not saying this is the case within that specific group of the NYPD as I don't know the full story, just making a general obversation.

Honestly, the Punisher died to me after his appearence on the Runaways comic. The fact that he was willing to literally blow up a building with a missile to catch a bunch of homeless teenagers because they were stealing something (that belonged to their parents anyway), and when he was questioned about killing kids, his answer was that ''it wouldn't be his first time'' was just too much for me. I honestly couldn't stand the character after that, and never really gotten over my dislike for him ever since. His first appearence in the MCU didn't help either, as it only reinforced what I disliked about the character; that scene with him walking into a hospital and shooting the place up, full of innocent people in the line of fire, just to catch a criminal was just terrorist. I get people liking the character on a fictional level, but I will never understand anyone who honestly believes in what he stands for.

[Ptrvc]

If Runaways had Frank do that then the whole book is non-canon in my opinion.

If you can't respect an established characters characterization in a shared universe then yiy can hardly expect me to respect you're book.

[Rosebunse]

Well, Frank did side with Nazis Cap. Yes, he was doing it more because he was a Captain America fanboy and it allowed him to basically have full government support of his serial killing.

And I don't often use the term "poser fan" often, but in this case, I think it's appropriate. These fans are using the surface level details of the Punisher to justify their own bad deeds and dangerous ideology.

[Ascended]

Eh, it's bad optics but its not like these cops have the knowledge we do. You know what those guys see? They see Batman, but without the silly cape, using the kind of gear they wish they had. They don't know Frank is a twisted psychopath and monster who deserves to be locked up. They know Frank shows up in comic books, where the superheroes live, so Frank must be a superhero too....only one a little closer to reality. And since Frank must be a superhero, his use of guns must be justified and the people he shoots must always be guilty and deserving.

He's a cool, edgy badass, just like Batman but a little less silly. He's got a cool emblem to co-opt. That's all these people know about Frank. It's like, the next dude you see on the street wearing a Batman t-shirt probably knows next to nothing about Batman but he's wearing the shirt anyway because it looks cool and Batman's a cool, edgy badass superhero. Same thing here, and just as innocent, only the cops' ignorance of what Frank is really like has tripped them up with current issues. Bad optics, and probably something that should stop, but far from damning or anything.

[theoneandonly]

the issue of runaways was purposefully throwing shade at punisher as joss whedon has always disliked the character as evidenced by him having Molly punch him and turning his world white. with pain. anyways as to the article maybe the NYPD are using the symbol to strike fear in the criminal community but mistook the skull symbol for Batmans sign.

[Huntsman Spider]

This right here. Specially during those hard, divisive political times, I've noticed that the Punisher has become a symbol of what some people see as ''righteousness''. As a brazilian, I saw his name being dragged into political discussions quite a few times within the geek community, with people comparing him to the current far-right sentiment we have in the country. There's even this popular saying in Brazil right now that claims ''a good criminal is a dead criminal'', and there is A LOT of people who genuinely believe in that as a justice system. I'm not surprised at all Frank Castle would become a role model to people who think like that. Not saying this is the case within that specific group of the NYPD as I don't know the full story, just making a general obversation.

Honestly, the Punisher died to me after his appearence on the Runaways comic. The fact that he was willing to literally blow up a building with a missile to catch a bunch of homeless teenagers because they were stealing something (that belonged to their parents anyway), and when he was questioned about killing kids, his answer was that ''it wouldn't be his first time'' was just too much for me. I honestly couldn't stand the character after that, and never really gotten over my dislike for him ever since. His first appearence in the MCU didn't help either, as it only reinforced what I disliked about the character; that scene with him walking into a hospital and shooting the place up, full of innocent people in the line of fire, just to catch a criminal was just terrorist. I get people liking the character on a fictional level, but I will never understand anyone who honestly believes in what he stands for.

Yeah, that's actually an extremely salient point about how fiction can simultaneously reflect and impact reality, and there has been a similar atmosphere of state-sponsored Punisher-style "zero tolerance for criminals" cropping up in other parts of the world, particularly the Philippines under its current leadership.

Eh, it's bad optics but its not like these cops have the knowledge we do. You know what those guys see? They see Batman, but without the silly cape, using the kind of gear they wish they had. They don't know Frank is a twisted psychopath and monster who deserves to be locked up. They know Frank shows up in comic books, where the superheroes live, so Frank must be a superhero too....only one a little closer to reality. And since Frank must be a superhero, his use of guns must be justified and the people he shoots must always be guilty and deserving.

He's a cool, edgy badass, just like Batman but a little less silly. He's got a cool emblem to co-opt. That's all these people know about Frank. It's like, the next dude you see on the street wearing a Batman t-shirt probably knows next to nothing about Batman but he's wearing the shirt anyway because it looks cool and Batman's a cool, edgy badass superhero. Same thing here, and just as innocent, only the cops' ignorance of what Frank is really like has tripped them up with current issues. Bad optics, and probably something that should stop, but far from damning or anything.

With regards to the bolded, the kind of gear used by the Punisher in his one-man "war on crime" is usually reserved for soldiers in actual wars, which is at least half the problem with too many in modern policing and law enforcement. A lot of them labor under the belief that they're "at war" with the criminal element, while in actuality, they end up waging war against the very communities they're supposed to be serving and protecting.

the issue of runaways was purposefully throwing shade at punisher as joss whedon has always disliked the character as evidenced by him having Molly punch him and turning his world white. with pain. anyways as to the article maybe the NYPD are using the symbol to strike fear in the criminal community but mistook the skull symbol for Batmans sign.

According to Whedon's reasoning, the Punisher is a fascistic power fantasy, insofar as "he never hits an innocent, even by accident or mistake, and his targets are always and only the bad people who deserve to die and die horribly." In the real world, such as it is, a Punisher-style vigilante would eventually kill an innocent person, or at bare minimum someone who had nothing to do with the crime s/he was killed for, and there would be a lot more collateral damage. Not that I fully agree with writing off the Punisher as a mere fascist power fantasy, but I can see the reasoning, especially if you've got people taking up his mantle in real life with no regard for the scruples, such as they are, of the character himself, or that the whole thing is a fantasy in the first place.