New Roles For Old Souls (unused narrative archetypes and who could fill them)

[Ascended]

Bit of an odd idea, I suppose, and I dunno if its got enough traction for a actual conversation. But I've been in several threads lately talking about how a particular character could benefit from finding a new niche and role in the DCU, one that no one else is currently filling that would help the character stand out from the crowd and expand the DCU.

So I thought, maybe this was a notion that deserved a thread of its own.

Couple examples of what I mean, because I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

The Super Spy: DC doesn't have a prominent "super spy" in its roster. Marvel has Nick Fury, there's James Bond, Archer, etc., but DC is lacking one. So make Nightwing the super spy for DC, which gives him something to do other than be Batman-lite and could help clean up the corner of the DCU where Checkmate lives. Sorta like a return to the "Grayson" series, only with the Nightwing name and costume still attached.

The "Undercover" Hero: Some heroes figure the only way to stop crime is to own it. If they run the town, they can limit what happens in it. In superheroes the best example is probably the Green Hornet, who used his position as a crime boss to actually bring down the "real" criminals. The tv show The Shield is another example, though those guys were legit corrupt....and there's another recent example from Marvel Netflix that I don't dare mention in case it spoils the ending of a particular show. I'd totally nominate Plastic Man for this role in DC. After reading (most) of his latest mini, and considering O'Brien's history, I feel like it makes perfect sense. Just say the Trinity are in on the secret and they help distract heroes from really gunning hard for Plas.

The Romance Comic. Okay, a book like this can't survive today's direct market, but there's new formats and audiences out there, and this is just a fun thought experiment anyway so who cares if the book would actually sell? But I'd really love to see a romance comic starring Ryan "Atom" Choi and Giganta. He's a hero who shrinks, she's a villain who grows. He's an awkward asthmatic nerd. She's a statuesque cougar on the prowl. The only thing they have in common or agree on is how much they love each other. Come on folks, this book would be a ton of fun and practically writes itself, and DC doesn't really have anything on the stands like this since Superman-Wonder Woman ended.

The First Responder Hero. So, most superheroes are sort of modeled after police officers and soldiers. They fight crime, when they gear up it's usually with weapons, when an emergency hits it's something like a bank robbery. What about the other kinds of heroes like fire fighters, field medics, etc? The closest we've got at DC is Doctor Mid-Nite, who's more healer than bruiser. But he's only a small part of a big team. So maybe it's time to give the good Doctor a bigger role in the DCU, as the resident "super EMT." Or alternatively (I like this better, honestly) have Donna Troy become a fire fighter and fill this niche herself. Donna's "orphan" origin works well with this, and it'd be something to help Donna stand on her own and stand out, which she's always struggled to do. Maybe with a actual role and niche in the DCU, DC would finally put some effort into making Donna Troy make sense.

The Celebrity Hero. We've seen many characters try to bridge the distance between being a superhero and being a public celebrity, but none have really pulled it off. But I'd like to see Stargirl give it a try.

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions? Is this just a dumb idea not big enough for a thread? Is it a way to expand the DCU and breathe new life into characters who could use it?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Red Hood could probably another Undercover Hero.

Vixen could be another Celebrity hero. Stargirl could still work but they cover it from different angle as Vixen is older and more expierenced. I like your BB pitch and he's another option. Starfire is made for the spotlight so.......

Another take on the Romance Comic is Mal/Karen, Vixen/Bronze Tiger or Vixen/B'wana Beast or Vixen/steel, and Ryan Choi/Killer Frost.

[DrNewGod]

Bit of an odd idea, I suppose, and I dunno if its got enough traction for a actual conversation. But I've been in several threads lately talking about how a particular character could benefit from finding a new niche and role in the DCU, one that no one else is currently filling that would help the character stand out from the crowd and expand the DCU.

So I thought, maybe this was a notion that deserved a thread of its own.

Couple examples of what I mean, because I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

The Super Spy: DC doesn't have a prominent "super spy" in its roster. Marvel has Nick Fury, there's James Bond, Archer, etc., but DC is lacking one. So make Nightwing the super spy for DC, which gives him something to do other than be Batman-lite and could help clean up the corner of the DCU where Checkmate lives. Sorta like a return to the "Grayson" series, only with the Nightwing name and costume still attached.

The "Undercover" Hero: Some heroes figure the only way to stop crime is to own it. If they run the town, they can limit what happens in it. In superheroes the best example is probably the Green Hornet, who used his position as a crime boss to actually bring down the "real" criminals. The tv show The Shield is another example, though those guys were legit corrupt....and there's another recent example from Marvel Netflix that I don't dare mention in case it spoils the ending of a particular show. I'd totally nominate Plastic Man for this role in DC. After reading (most) of his latest mini, and considering O'Brien's history, I feel like it makes perfect sense. Just say the Trinity are in on the secret and they help distract heroes from really gunning hard for Plas.

The Romance Comic. Okay, a book like this can't survive today's direct market, but there's new formats and audiences out there, and this is just a fun thought experiment anyway so who cares if the book would actually sell? But I'd really love to see a romance comic starring Ryan "Atom" Choi and Giganta. He's a hero who shrinks, she's a villain who grows. He's an awkward asthmatic nerd. She's a statuesque cougar on the prowl. The only thing they have in common or agree on is how much they love each other. Come on folks, this book would be a ton of fun and practically writes itself, and DC doesn't really have anything on the stands like this since Superman-Wonder Woman ended.

The First Responder Hero. So, most superheroes are sort of modeled after police officers and soldiers. They fight crime, when they gear up it's usually with weapons, when an emergency hits it's something like a bank robbery. What about the other kinds of heroes like fire fighters, field medics, etc? The closest we've got at DC is Doctor Mid-Nite, who's more healer than bruiser. But he's only a small part of a big team. So maybe it's time to give the good Doctor a bigger role in the DCU, as the resident "super EMT." Or alternatively (I like this better, honestly) have Donna Troy become a fire fighter and fill this niche herself. Donna's "orphan" origin works well with this, and it'd be something to help Donna stand on her own and stand out, which she's always struggled to do. Maybe with a actual role and niche in the DCU, DC would finally put some effort into making Donna Troy make sense.

The Celebrity Hero. We've seen many characters try to bridge the distance between being a superhero and being a public celebrity, but none have really pulled it off. But I'd like to see Stargirl give it a try.

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions? Is this just a dumb idea not big enough for a thread? Is it a way to expand the DCU and breathe new life into characters who could use it?

Cool thread idea.

The Celebrity Hero: Booster Gold's been repurposed, but he was created for this, and I wish there was some way to bring him back to it. He was a lot of fun that way. Alpha Centurion was also a good fit for that.

The Undercover: Being a shameless Green Hornet knock off, The Crimson Avenger (known only as The Crimson back then) was created as The Undercover. That said, I can think of two candidates for this role:

• Green Arrow: have Ollie fake Breaking Bad. You could make a whole arc out of him setting the stage, picking fights with his JL comrades (especially including GL and Black Canary) and leaving them furiously in his dust, with only Superman aware of (and more than a little conflicted about) what he's up to (Batman would be too obvious). Basically, make him a fake-criminal version of Season One's Arrow.
• The Guardian and the (updated) Newsboy Legion: "Guardian" takes on a different, meaning when he seems to be protecting a vicious street gang, who are secretly vigilantes undermining criminal activity. The idea works especially well if you take Guardian back to his beat-cop roots.

The Superspy: Nemsis is an obvious fit for this, the man who can go anywhere, as anyone, and who does the dirtiest of jobs.

[j9ac9k]

The Superspy: Nemsis is an obvious fit for this, the man who can go anywhere, as anyone, and who does the dirtiest of jobs.

Totally agree there!

The Patriot Hero: Skyrocket. DC doesn't really have a prominent Captain America type, but I think Skyrocket can be the modern version who served in the Middle East. As a vet, an officer, a super-hero and a young black woman she lives in many worlds and is in a place to talk about America in a way that most DC heroes can't. Superman represents america in many ways, but he has frequently placed himself above national loyalties. Skyrocket can be unapologetically American, with all that entails.

[king81992]

Does DC have a Reformed Villain Hero archetype? Not someone who was a petty crook but someone who was a major villain,went straight permanently(Lex went straight but became a villain again.Writers want you to believe that Harley went straight but are doing a terrible job with that.Clayface reformed but hasn't been used since)and was a mainstay on a superhero team. Compared to Marvel, DC has neglected this archetype.

For a Celebrity Hero, I would say that Superboy(Kon)was close to that in the 90s. Now that I think on it, I'm surprised that no writer has tried a Teen Titans run based on this concept. Would be a nice change of pace from the angst and story rehashes we get.

[DrNewGod]

Does DC have a Reformed Villain Hero archetype? Not someone who was a petty crook but someone who was a major villain,went straight permanently(Lex went straight but became a villain again.Writers want you to believe that Harley went straight but are doing a terrible job with that.Clayface reformed but hasn't been used since)and was a mainstay on a superhero team. Compared to Marvel, DC has neglected this archetype.

Deathstroke held this role for a while way back when he had his own title.

[Ascended]

Really good posts here, folks. Thanks, I thought this thread was probably DOA.

Booster was a great celebrity hero. I wish they would bring that back. He can still be the guardian of time and the "greatest hero you've never heard of" but he could be the celebrity hero as part of his cover.

Does DC have a Reformed Villain Hero archetype?

Oh, good one! No, DC doesn't have anyone like that. Or rather, this sort of heel turn happens but it never lasts, and no one really holds the role in a archetypal way.

I know I mentioned her already for something else, but I really think Giganta has more potential as a criminal trying to go straight than she does as the least interesting of Diana's Big 3 rogues.

The Patriot Hero: Skyrocket. DC doesn't really have a prominent Captain America type, but I think Skyrocket can be the modern version who served in the Middle East. As a vet, an officer, a super-hero and a young black woman she lives in many worlds and is in a place to talk about America in a way that most DC heroes can't. Superman represents america in many ways, but he has frequently placed himself above national loyalties. Skyrocket can be unapologetically American, with all that entails.

Another great archetype DC is lacking! Yeah, Skyrocket could work in that role. In order to make her the main "archetype" (in DC's pantheon-ish ways) she'd have to have a much bigger profile though. How would you bring her in and make her a bigger presence in the DCU?

[king81992]

Deathstroke held this role for a while way back when he had his own title.

Deathstroke's face turn always felt phony instead of genuine.I think that DC's villain reformations fail to stick because they choose the wrong characters to reform.

Harley could and should work as an anti hero but her heel-face turn hasn't really been believable and the editorial seems desperate to make it stick.

I always thought that Terra could work as an anti hero but it would have to be handled really well and most writers aren't the interested in dealing with the baggage associated with her character.

[DrNewGod]

Really good posts here, folks. Thanks, I thought this thread was probably DOA.

Booster was a great celebrity hero. I wish they would bring that back. He can still be the guardian of time and the "greatest hero you've never heard of" but he could be the celebrity hero as part of his cover.

Thing is, The Celebrity Hero doesn't work if it's a disguise. I can't see how you make a Kardashian work if she's really Mother Theresa. Don't know how to resolve that one without a reboot.

As to The Reformed Villain, now that I think about it, Gail Simone's interpretation of Catman from The Secret Six is the best fit I can think of.

[HandofPrometheus]

The celebrity hero should obviously go to Vixen. She's the most successful one.

[Ascended]

Vixen would work really well for the celebrity hero archetype too. And I do love that character. I feel like there's a whole corner of the DCU that could be carved out of her character.

[Ascended]

Thing is, The Celebrity Hero doesn't work if it's a disguise. I can't see how you make a Kardashian work if she's really Mother Theresa. Don't know how to resolve that one without a reboot.

Why don't you think it doesnt work if its a disguise?

[Killerbee911]

Thing is, The Celebrity Hero doesn't work if it's a disguise. I can't see how you make a Kardashian work if she's really Mother Theresa. Don't know how to resolve that one without a reboot.

Celebrity hero works with disguise, Most hero in comics don't pander for attention. A celebrity hero would do these you don't see Batman at a Club partying, You don't see Superman at an award show, You don't see Wonder Woman out on Date chased by paparazzi, You don't see Flash signing a multiyear deal with Nike. It works a little better without the mask agreed but a hero in mask could enjoy their fame and do things to pander for attention.

[HandofPrometheus]

Bit of an odd idea, I suppose, and I dunno if its got enough traction for a actual conversation. But I've been in several threads lately talking about how a particular character could benefit from finding a new niche and role in the DCU, one that no one else is currently filling that would help the character stand out from the crowd and expand the DCU.

So I thought, maybe this was a notion that deserved a thread of its own.

Couple examples of what I mean, because I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

The Super Spy: DC doesn't have a prominent "super spy" in its roster. Marvel has Nick Fury, there's James Bond, Archer, etc., but DC is lacking one. So make Nightwing the super spy for DC, which gives him something to do other than be Batman-lite and could help clean up the corner of the DCU where Checkmate lives. Sorta like a return to the "Grayson" series, only with the Nightwing name and costume still attached.

The "Undercover" Hero: Some heroes figure the only way to stop crime is to own it. If they run the town, they can limit what happens in it. In superheroes the best example is probably the Green Hornet, who used his position as a crime boss to actually bring down the "real" criminals. The tv show The Shield is another example, though those guys were legit corrupt....and there's another recent example from Marvel Netflix that I don't dare mention in case it spoils the ending of a particular show. I'd totally nominate Plastic Man for this role in DC. After reading (most) of his latest mini, and considering O'Brien's history, I feel like it makes perfect sense. Just say the Trinity are in on the secret and they help distract heroes from really gunning hard for Plas.

The Romance Comic. Okay, a book like this can't survive today's direct market, but there's new formats and audiences out there, and this is just a fun thought experiment anyway so who cares if the book would actually sell? But I'd really love to see a romance comic starring Ryan "Atom" Choi and Giganta. He's a hero who shrinks, she's a villain who grows. He's an awkward asthmatic nerd. She's a statuesque cougar on the prowl. The only thing they have in common or agree on is how much they love each other. Come on folks, this book would be a ton of fun and practically writes itself, and DC doesn't really have anything on the stands like this since Superman-Wonder Woman ended.

The First Responder Hero. So, most superheroes are sort of modeled after police officers and soldiers. They fight crime, when they gear up it's usually with weapons, when an emergency hits it's something like a bank robbery. What about the other kinds of heroes like fire fighters, field medics, etc? The closest we've got at DC is Doctor Mid-Nite, who's more healer than bruiser. But he's only a small part of a big team. So maybe it's time to give the good Doctor a bigger role in the DCU, as the resident "super EMT." Or alternatively (I like this better, honestly) have Donna Troy become a fire fighter and fill this niche herself. Donna's "orphan" origin works well with this, and it'd be something to help Donna stand on her own and stand out, which she's always struggled to do. Maybe with a actual role and niche in the DCU, DC would finally put some effort into making Donna Troy make sense.

The Celebrity Hero. We've seen many characters try to bridge the distance between being a superhero and being a public celebrity, but none have really pulled it off. But I'd like to see Stargirl give it a try.

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions? Is this just a dumb idea not big enough for a thread? Is it a way to expand the DCU and breathe new life into characters who could use it?

The Super Spy- Sasha Bordeaux
The "Undercover" Hero- hmm not to sure on this one
The Romance Comic- Bronze Tiger and Vixen or Nemesis and Nightshade
The First Responder Hero- Doctor Mid-Nite however there should be more than one.

[kjn]

Good topic.

One thing I think should be remembered here is that DC's world is constructed differently from the one in Marvel (and vice versa). That means that not every role fits equally well in all universes, or perhaps more accurately, not every role aligns neatly with a narrative niche.

When it comes to spying and heist plotlines, the sad thing is that DC had the perfect team in place with the original Birds of Prey, with Oracle as the mission master and Black Canary and Huntress as undercover operatives. That DC threw Oracle away was probably the greatest sin in the entire debacle that was New 52. At least Mairghread Scott's Batgirl run is preparing the ground for a return of Oracle, if the powers that be decide they want to do so. And for heists, they of course have Catwoman.

Romance is probably tricky to sell if labeled, but it's also a big draw as secondary plotlines. But here I think the natural narrative template really should be the soap opera or sitcom. Those pretty much require ensemble casts that are relatively constant over time. The Justice League is a little too loose and the characters are a little too busy with their own titles to work as a vehicle for this, but the Titans? Or just use the Bat-family, though most of them feel too solitary for this. Another option is to start a wholly new team. The Birds of Prey and Gotham City Sirens are probably a little too small as groups to function here.

A classic archetype is the loner/drifter one. It's popular in westerns, but Conan and many other characters also fit this—back when I read comics in the 80's Hulk followed this model. They leave a mess behind, find a new spot and maybe connect with some new people, and then trouble comes for them again. They solve the trouble, but part of the cost of solving it is they have to leave again. Cyborg could maybe fit this template, John Constantine certainly does; I'm sure there are plenty more good candidates.

As for exploring being a superhero celebrity, I'd say there is no better option than Wonder Woman. But the only comic book writer with the experience needed to write such an arc that I know of would be Neil Gaiman. But maybe you're thinking more of a superhero celebrity who actively seeks the rewards of fame?