New Roles For Old Souls (unused narrative archetypes and who could fill them)

[lemonpeace]

The Question has gone through several different, distinct iterations and approaches to the character. Ditko created him to be a more Objectivist (right is right, wrong is wrong - no compromise) crusader. This is the version that Moore used as the basis for Rorschach. In the Dennis O'Neil/Dennys Cowan "The Question" series, he got shot in the head and left for dead but was saved by Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon and became much more of a zen philosopher/martial artist - questioning his previously intractable viewpoint and investigated human nature as much as he investigated crimes. This is the version that fits the archetype in question. He didn't really become a conspiracy theorist "Mulder" type until the JLU cartoon series. (he was also shown to be an "urban Shaman" during another mini-series, but that was a bit out there and I won't even get into the "Trinity of Sin" version)

That's interesting. I never read Question so I guess the JLU version was what I was thinking of. The O'Neil/Cowan iteration sounds like he'd be a perfect fit for the Seeker/Sage archetype. I will definitely give that series a look.

What was so out there about the urban shaman iteration? What happened with the Trinity of Sin version?

[BohemiaDrinker]

The Super Spy: DC doesn't have a prominent "super spy" in its roster. Marvel has Nick Fury, there's James Bond, Archer, etc., but DC is lacking one. So make Nightwing the super spy for DC, which gives him something to do other than be Batman-lite and could help clean up the corner of the DCU where Checkmate lives. Sorta like a return to the "Grayson" series, only with the Nightwing name and costume still attached.

You know, I think could Jason would serve this function better, for a number of reasons. First, Jason is more connected to underworld types, more sleazy and street smart and more willing to kill. Secondly, because of these things. Red Hood running around as the bat-bad-boy really undermines Batman's whole operation.

Oh, good one! No, DC doesn't have anyone like that. Or rather, this sort of heel turn happens but it never lasts, and no one really holds the role in a archetypal way.

Once upon a time, there was the Pied Piper. Before Johns it was sort of unthinkable for him to have a return to villany.

[Ascended]

The Professional is pretty hard to figure out for me.

Actually, I think this archetype is already filled by Deathstroke.

One, I'd start her off as working for the government as the military point-person for super-hero activities and make sure if anyone wrote a story that somehow involved the military, that she'd have a presence.

Two, Relaunch or at least re-envision how groups like Suicide Squad, Checkmate, DEO etc all get along or how they function in relation to each other, then set Skyrocket as the most traditionally "heroic" within that system and that world which mostly operates in the grey areas.

Three, solo series. Give her a life, a better backstory and a real motivation more tied into her patriotism, her time in the Navy and hopes for the American Dream rather than the murdered parents trope.

Maybe you make her the point-man for Argus? I was thinking about Argus the other day, and the organization really needs a whole lot of work and TLC. And it needs someone to represent it, to be the mouth piece and poster boy/girl. Skyrocket could definitely work in such a role, and that would work nicely with what you've got here, I think.

Now, what do people think of Uncle Sam in the "patriot" archetype? I think he's probably the de facto owner of that position in DC, simply because there's no competition worth mentioning. There's other patriot themed heroes at DC, but none of them amount to anything while Sam's had a minor presence for decades, and is a recognizable American icon. But Sam being a public domain IP and not original.....does that take him out of the running to be THE "god of Patriotic heroes" in the DC pantheon?

I'm not well-versed on the Question but he seems more the gritty conspiracy crime noir type, I'm thinking more emotionally intelligent metaphysics-tinged explorer type.

I think the Sage archetype is held by either the Question or the Phantom Stranger.....possibly Metron. I'm not expert enough on any of them to say, really. Question's the biggest name so I'd hazard it would go to him, presuming he fits the archetype as well as the others?

Once upon a time, there was the Pied Piper. Before Johns it was sort of unthinkable for him to have a return to villany.

I thought of Piper too, but do supporting characters on Piper's level qualify? I suppose since there's really no one else he probably must by default?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

That's interesting. I never read Question so I guess the JLU version was what I was thinking of. The O'Neil/Cowan iteration sounds like he'd be a perfect fit for the Seeker/Sage archetype. I will definitely give that series a look.

What was so out there about the urban shaman iteration? What happened with the Trinity of Sin version?

Neither were well received so they were dropped/discarded.

I wouldn't mind if they toy around with the urban shaman by having him try to learn urban magic. He doesn't have to succeed or be that good at it but its something to play with.

[Ascended]

Neither were well received so they were dropped/discarded.

The Question has always struggled, it seems. Even when it's good, no one notices.

I myself was rather fond of Montoya in the role, I thought her transition throughout the 52 series was one of the best throughlines in the book and while I didn't like the idea of Intergang becoming a weird cult, I did like how the stories with Renee and the religion of crime played out.

Oh! Just thought of another archetype: the martial arts master. I suppose Lady Shiva fills this role, and she's a....relatively.....well known character (at least among DC fans) but she definitely isn't a big name. I wonder if there's something that could be done about that, to make Shiva a bigger player in the wider DCU?

[j9ac9k]

The Martial Arts Master:
There are plenty of good fighters, but I think someone to really embody this archetype has to have that philosophical and mental aspect as well...

Richard Dragon was heavily featured in the aforementioned "The Question" series as being very much the kind of martial arts master who was very philosophical and was so good he didn't even have to put hands on you to beat you. His mastery of martial arts had almost become something akin to magic.

Also, Karate Kid! Master of all forms of martial arts in the galaxy! Could take on a Daxamite with his bare hands.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The Question has always struggled, it seems. Even when it's good, no one notices.

I myself was rather fond of Montoya in the role, I thought her transition throughout the 52 series was one of the best throughlines in the book and while I didn't like the idea of Intergang becoming a weird cult, I did like how the stories with Renee and the religion of crime played out.

Oh! Just thought of another archetype: the martial arts master. I suppose Lady Shiva fills this role, and she's a....relatively.....well known character (at least among DC fans) but she definitely isn't a big name. I wonder if there's something that could be done about that, to make Shiva a bigger player in the wider DCU?

I could see Deathstroke as The Proffesional but is there a good guy version?

I liked Montoya picking up the Question mantle. It was my favorite part of 52 but it seems most fans would rather she just be Gotham Central.

I think a writer talked about using them both. I was a fan of The Question from the jLU cartoon so i was hoping he'd pop up in Rebirth.

With Shiva you just have to put her in a big event or have her go after a lister.

She's all about fighting or proving her mettle so have her challege WW to a fight or something.

[j9ac9k]

I could see Deathstroke as The Proffesional but is there a good guy version?

I haven't read her series, but maybe The Silencer? Or The Human Target?

I think Deathstroke was a much better fit for that achetype (and he could well be again) when he didn't have his own series. Once that happens, the stories necessitated for him to start having his own agendas, for things to be more personal than professional more often than not. I could see a new series where the intent is to present someone who always keeps it professional. The ship might have sailed for Slade to fit that role.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Maybe have the Guardian be a government sanctioned hero?

[lemonpeace]

The Martial Arts Master:
There are plenty of good fighters, but I think someone to really embody this archetype has to have that philosophical and mental aspect as well...

Richard Dragon was heavily featured in the aforementioned "The Question" series as being very much the kind of martial arts master who was very philosophical and was so good he didn't even have to put hands on you to beat you. His mastery of martial arts had almost become something akin to magic.

Also, Karate Kid! Master of all forms of martial arts in the galaxy! Could take on a Daxamite with his bare hands.

I think they could have Bronze Tiger fill that role since they turned the Richard Dragon identity into a villain. He's been popping up here and there throughout New 52/Rebirth with no real focus, having him become the quintessential Martial Artist would finally give him some much needed direction. Just don't make him a were-tiger, that was stupid.

[Ascended]

I haven't read her series, but maybe The Silencer? Or The Human Target?

I think Deathstroke was a much better fit for that achetype (and he could well be again) when he didn't have his own series. Once that happens, the stories necessitated for him to start having his own agendas, for things to be more personal than professional more often than not. I could see a new series where the intent is to present someone who always keeps it professional. The ship might have sailed for Slade to fit that role.

I dont think either Silencer or the Human Target are big enough names to claim an archetype as their own, honestly. And if Slade doesn't count because his stories are too personal, then I don't think we can include Silencer in that either, from what I understand her entire story is fueled by personal choices and threats to her family.

I think Slade fits the bill well enough, even if many of his stories are personal. I think the "Professional" can probably accept stuff like that, so long as the character still executes the goal with a cold, military-like precision.

I could see Deathstroke as The Proffesional but is there a good guy version?

None worth mentioning that come to mind.

I liked Montoya picking up the Question mantle. It was my favorite part of 52 but it seems most fans would rather she just be Gotham Central.

Yeah, I think we're in the minority here. Most people do seem to favor Sage as the Question.

With Shiva you just have to put her in a big event or have her go after a lister.

She's all about fighting or proving her mettle so have her challege WW to a fight or something.

That could be cool, depending on how DC is treating Diana at the time. If she's being treated like she's on Clark's power level, then it doesn't matter how badass Shiva is, she doesn't stand a chance. But if Diana is closer to a "flying Captain America" or something, then that'd be a hell of a fight.

Bronze Tiger is a pretty good suggestion too.

[DrNewGod]

If you make her For Hire against The Man (be he a crimelord or a plutocrat), Catwoman is perfect for both The Professional, and The Reformed Villain.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I dont think either Silencer or the Human Target are big enough names to claim an archetype as their own, honestly. And if Slade doesn't count because his stories are too personal, then I don't think we can include Silencer in that either, from what I understand her entire story is fueled by personal choices and threats to her family.

I think Slade fits the bill well enough, even if many of his stories are personal. I think the "Professional" can probably accept stuff like that, so long as the character still executes the goal with a cold, military-like precision.



None worth mentioning that come to mind.



Yeah, I think we're in the minority here. Most people do seem to favor Sage as the Question.



That could be cool, depending on how DC is treating Diana at the time. If she's being treated like she's on Clark's power level, then it doesn't matter how badass Shiva is, she doesn't stand a chance. But if Diana is closer to a "flying Captain America" or something, then that'd be a hell of a fight.

Bronze Tiger is a pretty good suggestion too.

I don't prefer Sage over Montoya or vice versa. I do think Montoya might be easier to use because she hasn't had that defining moment as Question. Vic is defined by the O'Neill run so i could see why people would use him less afterwards.

People just prefer Sage because it was his role first. Same with any other legacy character.

To be honest I've never been that into martial arts characters. I like the skillset but i never felt just being a Martial artist was a compelling story arc. Thats why i prefer DD over IF/Shang-chi.

So maybe have Bronze Tiger and Lady shiva as competing students of the same master but he/she died before the training was complete.

So you have them trying to decide for themselves what it means to be a master of martial arts.

[bat39]

Bit of an odd idea, I suppose, and I dunno if its got enough traction for a actual conversation. But I've been in several threads lately talking about how a particular character could benefit from finding a new niche and role in the DCU, one that no one else is currently filling that would help the character stand out from the crowd and expand the DCU.

So I thought, maybe this was a notion that deserved a thread of its own.

Couple examples of what I mean, because I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

The Super Spy: DC doesn't have a prominent "super spy" in its roster. Marvel has Nick Fury, there's James Bond, Archer, etc., but DC is lacking one. So make Nightwing the super spy for DC, which gives him something to do other than be Batman-lite and could help clean up the corner of the DCU where Checkmate lives. Sorta like a return to the "Grayson" series, only with the Nightwing name and costume still attached.

The "Undercover" Hero: Some heroes figure the only way to stop crime is to own it. If they run the town, they can limit what happens in it. In superheroes the best example is probably the Green Hornet, who used his position as a crime boss to actually bring down the "real" criminals. The tv show The Shield is another example, though those guys were legit corrupt....and there's another recent example from Marvel Netflix that I don't dare mention in case it spoils the ending of a particular show. I'd totally nominate Plastic Man for this role in DC. After reading (most) of his latest mini, and considering O'Brien's history, I feel like it makes perfect sense. Just say the Trinity are in on the secret and they help distract heroes from really gunning hard for Plas.

The Romance Comic. Okay, a book like this can't survive today's direct market, but there's new formats and audiences out there, and this is just a fun thought experiment anyway so who cares if the book would actually sell? But I'd really love to see a romance comic starring Ryan "Atom" Choi and Giganta. He's a hero who shrinks, she's a villain who grows. He's an awkward asthmatic nerd. She's a statuesque cougar on the prowl. The only thing they have in common or agree on is how much they love each other. Come on folks, this book would be a ton of fun and practically writes itself, and DC doesn't really have anything on the stands like this since Superman-Wonder Woman ended.

The First Responder Hero. So, most superheroes are sort of modeled after police officers and soldiers. They fight crime, when they gear up it's usually with weapons, when an emergency hits it's something like a bank robbery. What about the other kinds of heroes like fire fighters, field medics, etc? The closest we've got at DC is Doctor Mid-Nite, who's more healer than bruiser. But he's only a small part of a big team. So maybe it's time to give the good Doctor a bigger role in the DCU, as the resident "super EMT." Or alternatively (I like this better, honestly) have Donna Troy become a fire fighter and fill this niche herself. Donna's "orphan" origin works well with this, and it'd be something to help Donna stand on her own and stand out, which she's always struggled to do. Maybe with a actual role and niche in the DCU, DC would finally put some effort into making Donna Troy make sense.

The Celebrity Hero. We've seen many characters try to bridge the distance between being a superhero and being a public celebrity, but none have really pulled it off. But I'd like to see Stargirl give it a try.

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions? Is this just a dumb idea not big enough for a thread? Is it a way to expand the DCU and breathe new life into characters who could use it?

For the Undercover Hero, Catwoman is actually perfect. She's a known criminal, and also someone the heroes can trust to a limited extent.

For the Celebrity Hero, I actually think the Wally West Flash would be a great fit, though I'm mainly thinking of the JLU version now. The Flash in general, even Barry, kinda works as this, except that Barry can be the more humble celebrity, and of course, one who keeps his identity secret. Incidentially, back during the Silver Age, practically all the heroes were examples of 'Celebrity Heroes'.

For the Super-spy, Roy Harper could be a good candidate. He pretty much was one Pre-Flashpoint and I think its a role that suits him pretty well since he's not as tied to being the superhero Arsenal as Dick Grayson is tied to being the superhero Nightwing.

[Ascended]

For the Undercover Hero, Catwoman is actually perfect. She's a known criminal, and also someone the heroes can trust to a limited extent.

Catwoman could totally work as the Undercover Hero, good catch.

I think she'd also work as the "Rehabilitated Former Villain" too, if she could take another step or two towards real heroism and get (mostly) out of the gray anti-hero morality.

For the Celebrity Hero, I actually think the Wally West Flash would be a great fit, though I'm mainly thinking of the JLU version now. The Flash in general, even Barry, kinda works as this, except that Barry can be the more humble celebrity, and of course, one who keeps his identity secret. Incidentially, back during the Silver Age, practically all the heroes were examples of 'Celebrity Heroes'.

I think a secret identity makes the Celebrity Hero a really hard archetype to fill, because the point here is that the hero lives (largely) in the public eye. Now, if the hero has a secret identity but is still walking red carpets and filming commercials, it can work, but I feel like it's a tough line to walk. Wally West would've fit the bill back when his identity was public knowledge though. I had forgotten all about that era, good call!

For the Super-spy, Roy Harper could be a good candidate. He pretty much was one Pre-Flashpoint and I think its a role that suits him pretty well since he's not as tied to being the superhero Arsenal as Dick Grayson is tied to being the superhero Nightwing.

Yeah, I suppose Roy could pull it off. Though I think of him more as DC's resident Everyman, or maybe the resident Screw-Up, more than anything else.