What should happen to men on Themyscira?

[Doctor Bifrost]

Yes, despondent peoples content to slave away all day, not even caring when some of them dies sure are a perfect society...

I don't remember them being despondent. They seemed content with their role as Hephaestus's assistants. I don't remember anything that would support the "slaving away" interpretation. They seemed to get satisfaction out of their work. (Also, there were no brutal overseers, whippings, or other signifiers that most authors would put in to indicate that they were slaves, or being forced to do something that they hated.) And I don't remember them not caring when one of them died, but here I assume you have a specific instance in mind. In any case, can you provide references and citations for these interpretations? They seem pretty far afield from what I read, but it was a while ago.

Yes, the Sons of the Amazons wanted to reunite with the Amazons, but it was because they wanted to feel whole for the first time in their life.

I also don't remember anything they said, thought, or did, that indicated they thought of themselves as "not whole." There are plenty of other reasons to want to reunite with your biological family, especially after the circumstances that lead to the separation have changed, or appear to have changed. (I could give you plenty of examples out of the lives of gay men I know who were distanced from their families of origin and later reunited. These men were not, and did not consider themselves "not whole." In fact, it was their happiness and comfort in their own lives that gave them the strength to approach, and in some cases where necessary, forgive, their families.)

The all-female Amazons hated and murdered men, The all-male society of the Sons didn't hate women (even though they had been abandoned by their mothers, which saved them from an even worse fate at their hands), forgave their female kin, and held no ill-will against them. Those guys were pretty nice. They didn't taunt each other; they didn't even taunt the Amazons. I don't see the equivalency.

The Amazons are victims who have decided that it was better to segregate themselves and stew and their pain and suffering instead of even trying to change the world after it hurt them.

“[S]tew[in] their pain and suffering”? Is that what they’re doing? Maybe in Azzarello’s version. In most versions, however, the Amazons on Paradise Island/Themyscira seemed to have largely left their pain and suffering behind, and devoted themselves to creating a loving, supportive society where they could live their lives (and guard Doom's Doorway, or whatever) without the sexism of Man's World breathing down their necks. Not a lot of non-meal-related stewing involved.

Originally I wrote something much longer concerning the Amazons' choices, using comparisons from both alternate histories and The So-Called Real World™. But really it comes down to this:

People who have (as you describe the Amazons) been victimized (especially when that victimization is based on systemic oppression which is part of a society's ideology) do not have a moral obligation to offer themselves up for re-victimization in order to "heal" the society that victimized them in the first place, and would almost certainly try to do so again. Especially when their population is small, so that, despite their talents, they have no a priori reason to believe they would be able to make much of a dent. And may easily find themselves mistreated, imprisoned, attacked, or killed. (Or, alternatively, setting themselves up as conquerers.)

Now, in The So-Called Real World™, a certain subset of people who have been the victims of oppression do devote part of their lives to fighting it. (Not all of them, by any means. Some just keep their heads down, try to avoid being victims again, and try to simply live their lives as best as they're able.) But part of the reason for that is that they have nowhere else to go. There's no way out of the system, you either fight back openly (with all the sacrifice and risk that entails) or try to stay under the radar. The Amazons' patron deities gave them another alternative: live your lives away from Man's World, free from sexism, and while you're at it, protect the world from Ares or Titan-zombies or whatever. To castigate the Amazons for taking that choice is literally blaming the victims.

Not that I consider the Amazons on Themyscira victims. They have left their victimhood behind.

(Consider for comparison the African-Americans in the 1940's-1960's who moved to Paris, where, in their estimation, racism was considerably less than here, and just wrote their books, played their music, painted their paintings, and danced their dances. I'm not going to attack them for being immoral, either.)

***

Let’s also realize that we’re talking about the DC Universe, in which you can’t always apply highly literal and hyperrealistic expectations to the characters. We could ask why the Flash, Superman, and Green Lantern don’t solve the homelessness problem in this country. With superspeed, superstrength, and a power ring, I’d estimate that one day with Habitats for Humanity would do it. (We’ve seen the Flash restore buildings destroyed in super-fights in a matter of moments. But he stops there.)

Even more, we could ask: why don’t the superheroes, with their vast powers, resources, and technology, make it a goal to make sure that no child ever goes hungry again? They could do it.

Sometimes we get vague, hand-wavey answers to this, which amount to restatements of the Prime Directive (but which, to me, never seem like a good enough reason to let children starve or people live under bridges). But it’s rare to hear somebody say, “Superman is immoral because he hasn’t taken on the world hunger problem yet.” Most readers believe, at some level, that Superman has a role in the DC Universe, and that’s not it. That's part of the genre.

But for some reason it’s considered more valid to say, “those Amazons are immoral cowards because they live on their island, have their own civilization, and pursue their own lives (which include protecting the world from Ares or Titan-zombies or whatever), rather than abandoning all that and fixing - somehow - the problem of sexism in Man’s World. That makes them the real sexists!” Even though they’re not as powerful as Superman, who we let off the hook.

I think maybe we have unreasonable expectations of women in general.

[Korath]

“[S]tew[in] their pain and suffering”? Is that what they’re doing? Maybe in Azzarello’s version. In most versions, however, the Amazons on Paradise Island/Themyscira seemed to have largely left their pain and suffering behind, and devoted themselves to creating a loving, supportive society where they could live their lives (and guard Doom's Doorway, or whatever) without the sexism of Man's World breathing down their necks. Not a lot of non-meal-related stewing involved.

Yes, a loving and supportive society for one precisely defined type of people, while violently rejecting, in words and ideals, if not deeds, all the rest. I don't care how great their achievement in science, social interactions or whatever are. The Amazons society is, fundamentally, an abomination. It promotes apartheid at best, at worst, the ethnic cleansing of all male, when its ideological foundations are actually exposed and that's the problem. And I'm just unable to pretend that it's okay because no writer will ever go down that road. Because that's what the Amazon's successes hinges upon; sexism of the most supreme caliber, to the point that it has become casual racism. Marston's ideas were great when he created Wonder Woman, but they are utterly unable to endure the test of time without exposing a considerable amount of rot underneath.

I'll also point out that I do dislike the usual Superman who upholds "the American Way", that is the status quo which allows rich peoples to become richer, poor peoples to live ever more miserable lives and our planet to be raped and sullied like never before in its history. And all that leads us to the death of civilization as we know it at best, the potential extinction of human race at worst, during this century. That's why the only version of Superman I care about is the New 52, who tried to change the world from Morrison's to Pak's run.

[Agent Z]

Yes, a loving and supportive society for one precisely defined type of people, while violently rejecting, in words and ideals, if not deeds, all the rest. I don't care how great their achievement in science, social interactions or whatever are. The Amazons society is, fundamentally, an abomination. It promotes apartheid at best, at worst, the ethnic cleansing of all male, when its ideological foundations are actually exposed and that's the problem. And I'm just unable to pretend that it's okay because no writer will ever go down that road. Because that's what the Amazon's successes hinges upon; sexism of the most supreme caliber, to the point that it has become casual racism. Marston's ideas were great when he created Wonder Woman, but they are utterly unable to endure the test of time without exposing a considerable amount of rot underneath.

I'll also point out that I do dislike the usual Superman who upholds "the American Way", that is the status quo which allows rich peoples to become richer, poor peoples to live ever more miserable lives and our planet to be raped and sullied like never before in its history. And all that leads us to the death of civilization as we know it at best, the potential extinction of human race at worst, during this century. That's why the only version of Superman I care about is the New 52, who tried to change the world from Morrison's to Pak's run.

Firstly, men are not a racial or ethnic group so calling what the Amazons were doing an "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing of males" is ridiculous and frankly very insulting to actual racial and ethnic groups that have been victims of prejudice.

Secondly, the Amazons staying on their island and minding their own business is not the same thing as carrying out a campaign of violence and oppression against men. Especially since they were the ones who were victims of oppression and violence that they were trying to get away from. When Steve landed on their shores, they did not harm him and eventually opened up their shores to the entire world, men and women alike.

The accusations of racism are unfounded and your claim they never tried to reconnect to anyone is inaccurate. And I find it questionable how you can claim that Azzarello is the only writer to ever tackle the Amazons' flaws when you have admitted to barely even reading previous Wonder Woman runs before the New 52.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Yes, a loving and supportive society for one precisely defined type of people, while violently rejecting, in words and ideals, if not deeds, all the rest. I don't care how great their achievement in science, social interactions or whatever are. The Amazons society is, fundamentally, an abomination. It promotes apartheid at best, at worst, the ethnic cleansing of all male, when its ideological foundations are actually exposed and that's the problem. And I'm just unable to pretend that it's okay because no writer will ever go down that road. Because that's what the Amazon's successes hinges upon; sexism of the most supreme caliber, to the point that it has become casual racism. Marston's ideas were great when he created Wonder Woman, but they are utterly unable to endure the test of time without exposing a considerable amount of rot underneath.

I'll also point out that I do dislike the usual Superman who upholds "the American Way", that is the status quo which allows rich peoples to become richer, poor peoples to live ever more miserable lives and our planet to be raped and sullied like never before in its history. And all that leads us to the death of civilization as we know it at best, the potential extinction of human race at worst, during this century. That's why the only version of Superman I care about is the New 52, who tried to change the world from Morrison's to Pak's run.

Gee. "The ethnic cleansing of men"? Really?

The Amazons are living on their isolated island alone. They are, as directed by their patron deities, protecting the world from potentially great harms (be that Ares, or whatever comes out of Doom's Doorway, or whatever), and otherwise living their lives together without the patriarchy of Man's World breathing down their neck.

How anyone goes from their to "the ethnic cleansing of men" is beyond me. And it's like you don't take in the context - the pervasive anti-female sexism of the outside, male-dominated world (Man's World, we call it), which they are simply removing themselves from. Turning that into some horrendous "Crime Against Men" seems to be based on pretending that the world is, in fact, egalitarian to begin with, and the Amazons are trying to oppress the men of the world and make it female-controlled. But that's not the situation. At all.

To me - when I look at the nature of the sexism (pervasive, oppressive, sometimes brutal and violent) that prevailed for the vast majority of Man's World history over the last three millennia (or however long the Amazons have been chilling out on Themyscira) - well, it sounds like this, for comparison: some gods tell a bunch of dalits ("untouchables") in India that they can go to a secret island, undertake a significant task helpful to the world, and not be treated like inferior beings by the "Higher Castes." The dalits take the gods up on this. And then you say that the dalits are the real bigots, practicing apartheid by keeping away from the Higher Castes that want to oppress them, and living a life that is tantamount to "ethnic cleansing of the Higher Castes."

And I guess that, if you don't really believe in anti-female sexism, or you don't think it was really that bad for women, you could look at a fictional (and fantasy-based) depiction in which women get one small sliver of the world to themselves and say, outraged and furious, "But what about the men??!?!?" Oh yes, the poor men, who basically ruled the rest of the world and and worked very hard - and usually successfully - to keep women in their place.

I thank you for your response about Superman. Have you posted those comments before? Because, when a person doesn't write long, vituperative, multiple posts in which he attacks Superman as "immoral" for not taking on the World Hunger Problem, and doesn't write long, vituperative, multiple posts in which he attacks the Flash as "immoral" for not taking on the World Homelessness Problem, but does write long, vituperative, multiple posts in which he attacks the Amazons as "immoral" (and worse) for not taking on the World Sexism Problem, then I have to feel like something else is going on, which I am unable to address because it's hidden.

In any case, it doesn't sound like you're interested in reading any current version of Superman, so I hope you're not subjecting yourself to it. And it also sounds like Wonder Woman's entire premise and backstory is anathema to you, so I do hope you find some reading material that doesn't upset you quite so much.

(I've been involved in fighting aspects of comic books over the decades, such as the non-existence of LGBT characters, and have seen some changes. But I suspect Diana coming from a small, isolated, all-female society of Amazons is not likely to change. Which is fine with me, but obviously not with you. As is your right.)

I wish you well, Korath. And for everybody else (who I also wish well): I've just come back to the CBR message boards after a long break (specifically to see what people were saying about Wonder Woman). I'm not sure I'll stick around, as I seem to be making the mistake of allowing myself get caught up in the same conversations (some of which don't wind up being very constructive) over and over. If I'm not here, and anybody wishes to contact me, you can use my email: doctorbifrost@gmail.com. Or got to my semi-inactive blog, http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/, where I still check for messages from time to time.

Enjoy your comics!

Doctor Bfirost

[kjn]

I'm not sure I'll stick around, as I seem to be making the mistake of allowing myself get caught up in the same conversations (some of which don't wind up being very constructive) over and over. If I'm not here, and anybody wishes to contact me, you can use my email: doctorbifrost@gmail.com. Or got to my semi-inactive blog, http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/, where I still check for messages from time to time.

Personally, I'd be sad to see you go. We can always need more thoughtful and well-spoken posters, even (or perhaps especially!) if they don't post much.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Personally, I'd be sad to see you go. We can always need more thoughtful and well-spoken posters, even (or perhaps especially!) if they don't post much.

Thank you for your kind words.

[Zahina]

[Doctor Bifrost]

The Silver Age equivalent of clickbait. But what actually happened to the guy in the issue?

[Restingvoice]

My answer depends on whether the average readers want Amazons to be within the sliding scale of Feminism and Mysandry. I prefer the area that makes sense for Diana's character and upbringing, then later on, the Amazons own character development. So I guess it will be something that change as the story goes.

Nothing, because there shouldn't be any men on the island in the first place. I miss the sci-fi floating platforms men had to stand on in the Bronze Age to keep from touching the island's soil.

This is the first time I heard about this and it sounds hilarious

The Bronze Age version is that if a man were to land on the island, all the Amazons would lose their senses and fall in love with him. I think the punishment for a man entering Amazon Island though should be a denecking.

Azarello had a similar idea, but they just go for the testicles.

Edit: Another person has posted the scans.

I liked it as a creepy solution but the only problem I had was trying to keep male Cyclops, Satyrs, and Centaurs on the island and alive.

There are Satyrs and centaurs there? Aren't they traditionally a horny bunch?

[raidensix]

The Silver Age equivalent of clickbait. But what actually happened to the guy in the issue?

I think I saw this once at a collectibles shop. The cover really has nothing to do with the actual story. An army invades Paradise Island but in the end the island and the amazons were just an illusion or something to that effect.

[WonderSpace]

Brillant posts @Doctor Bifrost you nailed it.

[Gurz]

Those lucky bastards should enjoy the all you can eat open buffet that's Themyscira. jk lol .

[kjn]

There are Satyrs and centaurs there? Aren't they traditionally a horny bunch?

Satyrs are a horny bunch, yes (though most modern pictures of them are really fauns). Centaurs are more dependant on the specific take, but from what I can tell they were more depicted as wise and learned.

Anyway, most versions of Themyscira don't show that many sentient mythical creatures apart from the Amazons, from what I remember.

[Vanguard-01]

Satyrs are a horny bunch, yes (though most modern pictures of them are really fauns). Centaurs are more dependant on the specific take, but from what I can tell they were more depicted as wise and learned.

Anyway, most versions of Themyscira don't show that many sentient mythical creatures apart from the Amazons, from what I remember.

*Cough* Megalodons!*Cough, cough*

[kjn]

*Cough* Megalodons!*Cough, cough*

(1) Megalodons aren't mythical, nor sentient. (2) The megalodons are mostly present in Simone's take and LoWW, IIRC. (3) They are around Themyscira, not on the island

ETA: nor sentient