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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Default Your favorite characters flaw that makes you recoil

    Leah Williams has been doing a wonderful job lately. She really gets the characters. Recently she has drawn the ire of comics gaters for calling a spade a spade.

    Here she discusses Kitty's use of the N-word and Jeans deepest darkest desire to be a slave owner.

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...726248448?s=19

    There is something in every characters history that we all don't like. Or flaws in a character that we try not to examine to closely because we don't like what we see.

    I recall Cyclops once went to the middle East and shouted camel jockies in the 60s

    Emma killed a horse.

    Xavier's dark repressed desires included trying to rape Dani

    What has your favorite character done that makes you recoil
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 11-22-2018 at 04:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    ...Gwad, no wonder Marvel comics stories are slowly stepping further into boring frivolous dribble. They are probably so worried about offending people that they skate a line so thin it end up leading them into writer castration.

    To add I'm Black and I realize the context of what was going on in the story of the Phoenix saga and I am not offended by it. People should just grow up and stop looking for things to be offended by in comics. Slavery happened there is no reason why it can't be referenced or used in the way that it was handled in that story. It showed how terrible and veil Mastermind and the Hellfire Club was, while also showing how awful Jean had become under his sway.

    News flash to that twitter poster YOU ARE NOT A HERO IF YOU CREATED THE FIRE AND THEN PROCEED TO PRETEND LIKE YOU ARE PUTTING IT OUT!!!
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 11-22-2018 at 05:23 AM.
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  3. #3
    The Great Bull Del torro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Leah Williams has been doing a wonderful job lately. She really gets the characters. Recently she has drawn the ire of comics gaters for calling a spade a spade.

    Here she discusses Kitty's use of the N-word and Jeans deepest darkest desire to be a slave owner.

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...726248448?s=19

    There is something in every characters history that we all don't like. Or flaws in a character that we try not to examine to closely because we don't like what we see.

    I recall Cyclops once went to the middle East and shouted camel jockies in the 60s

    Emma killed a horse.

    Xavier's dark repressed desires included trying to rape Dani

    What has your favorite character done that makes you recoil
    Lmfao, I saw what she was doing on Twitter.
    Not sure where she's going with the Jean racism thing. Under masterminds control, Jean talked, dressed and behaved in a manner that she would never act as in her normal state of mind.

    I mean, if there is a weird fantasy in you to eat human flesh, that you recognize as completely immoral and awful, then banish the thought from your mind completely. That doesn't make you a cannibal. But then someone comes and mind controls you to eat human flesh, and it's your fault because you had that fantasy once.

    Likewise, a straight guy having a fantasy or wondering what it's like to kiss another guy, but then dismisses and burns the thought, doesn't make him gay. If someone Mind controls him and forces him to have sex, would we that he had the fantasy once, so he technically wanted it.

    Our deepest darkest desires are not who we are, especially when you recognize that a fantasy is wrong and immoral and triumph over it in your mind and block it our completely. Sometimes, we can't help where our minds wander too.

    Besides there's other things from Jean that's appalling. The way she ignored Scotts own behavior in the Madelyne debacle and endorsed while running her mouth with all kinds of bad talk about Maddy. Or how she violently attacked Emma while acting as if Scott had no role in the affair. Or how she can be a hypocrite, getting angry at Scott for looking at another woman or getting angry at any woman that looks at Scott, while kissing or getting uncomfortably close with Logan. Or that time she killed Prism in X-Factor and was like "who gives a s***", or her violent temper that no one called her out on, atleast she's toned that down recently.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Niether this thread nor the rwitrer thread is saying that they want to retcon past issues. In fact the Twitter thread is specific about acknowledging those issues. That's not what this thread is about and I urge you to create your own thread if that's what you wish to discuss.

    In regards to the second part of the comment. Well the point I guess was Claremont wanted to show that that desire for evil already existed within Jean and I guess everyone has that potential hence her desire being a slave owner. So yes agreed on that last bit especially regarding Madeylne in X-Factor

    She wasn't mind controlled that's the point of Leah's comments. It's clear she's seduced by her own fantasies.she wasn't in abnormal state of mind she wasn't mentally ill. She was giving into her own dark desires. Mastermind tempted her on a daily basis and she eventually succumbed after a year
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 11-22-2018 at 05:28 AM.

  5. #5

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    I don't read Williams coming across as offended. There's a difference between doing a delve into the darker parts of canon and examining what they mean for the character overall, and dismissing a character as "bad", untouchable, or unusable because these dark elements exist. Given the good work she's done with Emma and Illyana, two heroes with very dark elements to their pasts, I'd say she's well aware of how the contrast of dark against light is just another storytelling tool. Where I see her getting ticked off is with posters who are trying to dismiss the ramifications of those elements. Don't know that it's worth the energy, personally, but...*shrug*
    Last edited by Anduinel; 11-22-2018 at 05:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I don't see Williams coming across as offended. There's a difference between doing a delve into the darker parts of canon and examining what they mean for the character overall, and dismissing a character as "bad", untouchable, or unusable because these dark elements exist. Given the good work she's done with Emma and Illyana, two heroes with very dark elements to their pasts, I'd say she's well aware of how the contrast of dark against light is just another storytelling tool. Where I see her getting ticked off is with posters who are trying to dismiss the ramifications of those elements. Don't know that it's worth the energy, personally, but *shrug*
    Co-signed

    10char

  7. #7
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Kitty saying the N-word is crass, but she was a kid, so I absolutely buy that she would just carelessly say it to prove a point, especially in God Loves, Man Kills (which is the only instance of it I specifically remember). As kids do.

    As for the Jean thing, I reread 70's Claremont like a year ago and don't really remember any indication that the mental simulation came more from her than him. Also, how can it? Jason's power is illusions, not telepathy. How could he have plucked her deepest desires from her mind? I thought he was just stalking her and slowly seeding it into her over time, from scratch. And then she falls into it fully like Stockholm syndrome. Regardless, if you're going to have Jean alive, when you shouldn't, and you need to give her some character flaws to make her more interesting, try the genocide from this same story arc instead. Much less vague!

    And Claremont's biggest race boo-boos are Psylocke and the cop and nurse from Demon Bear. Those aren't realistic (duh), they're not vague or meaningful, they're just really, really, REALLY weird.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Kitty saying the N-word is crass, but she was a kid, so I absolutely buy that she would just carelessly say it to prove a point, especially in God Loves, Man Kills (which is the only instance of it I specifically remember). As kids do.

    As for the Jean thing, I reread 70's Claremont like a year ago and don't really remember any indication that the mental simulation came more from her than him. Also, how can it? Jason's power is illusions, not telepathy. How could he have plucked her deepest desires from her mind? I thought he was just stalking her and slowly seeding it into her over time, from scratch. And then she falls into it fully like Stockholm syndrome. Regardless, if you're going to have Jean alive, when you shouldn't, and you need to give her some character flaws to make her more interesting, try the genocide from this same story arc instead. Much less vague!

    And Claremont's biggest race boo-boos are Psylocke and the cop and nurse from Demon Bear. Those aren't realistic (duh), they're not vague or meaningful, they're just really, really, REALLY weird.
    Mastermind used the mind trap device to discern these desires. There's actually a few panels in the DPS. The one where Jeans in the Club and picks out vile thoughts that she finds appealing and this panel here where Mastermind explains what he's doing.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/shieldma...enix-saga/amp/

    The thing about the genocide from the story is that it wasn't out of malice. The Phoenix didn't even know they existed. She masturbated to the star and exploded and destroyed it and it destroyed the broccoli people. As per Claremont in X-Men companion.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 11-22-2018 at 06:02 AM.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Kitty saying the N-word is crass, but she was a kid, so I absolutely buy that she would just carelessly say it to prove a point, especially in God Loves, Man Kills (which is the only instance of it I specifically remember). As kids do.

    As for the Jean thing, I reread 70's Claremont like a year ago and don't really remember any indication that the mental simulation came more from her than him. Also, how can it? Jason's power is illusions, not telepathy. How could he have plucked her deepest desires from her mind? I thought he was just stalking her and slowly seeding it into her over time, from scratch. And then she falls into it fully like Stockholm syndrome. Regardless, if you're going to have Jean alive, when you shouldn't, and you need to give her some character flaws to make her more interesting, try the genocide from this same story arc instead. Much less vague!

    And Claremont's biggest race boo-boos are Psylocke and the cop and nurse from Demon Bear. Those aren't realistic (duh), they're not vague or meaningful, they're just really, really, REALLY weird.
    Emma Frost created and gave him a device that enhanced his powers is how.
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  10. #10
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    This entire process of mind manipulation is certainly a tad convoluted. But the phrases "convoluted" and "mind control" tend to be relevant to a lot of Chris' stuff.

    So it's certainly a scene that's open to interpretation. It's a scenario where she wants to be in power so that she can summon a greater power. I question how much the Storm scene is really relevant to Jean, as without Storm there wouldn't be any slaves in the fantasy. He's trying to turn her against the team and is presenting them as captives without breaking her immersion, so Storm would have to be like that, and once this illusion is settled in that's the way someone in that position is going to act once you feed into their ego and make them buy into the setting. I don't really buy that it's some damning indictment into Jean's character like she has some secret shameful slave kink, or that colonial era power specifically is really relevant to the Phoenix.

    As for the genocide and Shi'ar deaths, it doesn't really matter if it wasn't intended or not, she did it. When she came back in the 80's, editorial and Byrne conspired to whitewash away her actions with the egg retcon (ugh) because they wanted the morality of the character to be overall squeaky clean to justify her return. When ironically, bringing her back and having her deal with guilt and remorse is the best possible argument for why she should be brought back, but they passed on it. But writers can still go back and address it now. They can just retcon the egg, they seem to know today how dumb it is anyway.

  11. #11
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    My favorite character is Jean Grey, then Scott and then a tie between Logan and Storm
    i absolutely hate the bad love drama they are usually envolved specially Jean and Scott. All these teases and love triangles makes them look very bad. Like really bad partners and people. Except Storm, she is perfect.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 11-22-2018 at 06:31 AM.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    This entire process of mind manipulation is certainly a tad convoluted. But the phrases "convoluted" and "mind control" tend to be relevant to a lot of Chris' stuff.

    So it's certainly a scene that's open to interpretation. It's a scenario where she wants to be in power so that she can summon a greater power. I question how much the Storm scene is really relevant to Jean, as without Storm there wouldn't be any slaves in the fantasy. He's trying to turn her against the team and is presenting them as captives without breaking her immersion, so Storm would have to be like that, and once this illusion is settled in that's the way someone in that position is going to act once you feed into their ego and make them buy into the setting. I don't really buy that it's some damning indictment into Jean's character like she has some secret shameful slave kink, or that colonial era power specifically is really relevant to the Phoenix.

    As for the genocide and Shi'ar deaths, it doesn't really matter if it wasn't intended or not, she did it. When she came back in the 80's, editorial and Byrne conspired to whitewash away her actions with the egg retcon (ugh) because they wanted the morality of the character to be overall squeaky clean to justify her return. When ironically, bringing her back and having her deal with guilt and remorse is the best possible argument for why she should be brought back, but they passed on it. But writers can still go back and address it now. They can just retcon the egg, they seem to know today how dumb it is anyway.
    Claremont did the same with Xavier he had his deepest darkest desires and urges being to rape kitty and Dani.

    Well in the other panel Jean acknowledges the thoughts she finds attractive are vial. It wasn't Mastermind who had Jean call Ororo beauty slap her across the face and call her a slave. If we were going by what you're saying. As we both know he's an illusionist and mind control was not in his powerset. He had access to her thoughts to create illusion's and seduced Jean through her own fantasies

    That was Buseik
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 11-22-2018 at 06:36 AM.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    John Byrne never wanted to change his story. He had disagreements with Claremont on who should lead he was partially to Nightcrawler and Colossus leading over Storm

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Well one of my favorites is Sabretooth. We don't need to open that box. lol Some things are obvious, especially if the character is a villain. However, he has been toned down a lot over the years & made more of a joke. So some things he was or may have been at one point might not be canon anymore.

    Monet is also another favorite, and while it was interesting, I have mixed feelings on her being a HFC member. Her behavior in the chapters during the reveal came off like she was becoming the worse version of Emma.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 11-22-2018 at 06:59 AM.

  15. #15
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Busiek came up with the egg, then told it to Roger Stern, who told it to Byrne, and it was Byrne who told it to Layton for X-Factor, and the whole thing happened because of Shooter's edict for her absolution. I don't put any responsibility on Busiek for coming up with a bad idea when he was a fan and young creator, especially since he was just trying to get around a rule. I blame Shooter for the rule and Byrne as a pro for putting it to paper.

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