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  1. #91
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    In Wonder Woman #1 the other Amazons wore even less.

    Fun fact in the flashback to the Amazons fighting Hercules, his men wore armor and battle skirts, the Amazons wore chiffon.
    Note that amount of skin shown isn't really the best marker here. Purpose matters a lot. The current battle skirt and armoured corset may show as much skin as the old swimsuit, but it sends very different signals. The swimsuits shown in your example are constructed more for sports activities than for looking sexy.

  2. #92
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    So I was in my LCS a couple days ago, saw these covers without reading the title and immediately thought this was a badass new costume for Wonder Woman:









    Turned out, upon second glance, that it is a new series by Dynamite Comics about Dejah Thoris, a character from that old direct predecessor of Superman, John Carter of Mars.

    Overall, they're clearly trying to give Dejah some of Diana's look (well, mixed with She-Ra and Xena). I'm not a fan of the bare belly nor the boots, but the rest of this particular look ... definitely gives me some ideas for Diana.
    Last edited by daBronzeBomma; 12-08-2018 at 02:12 PM.

  3. #93
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Note that amount of skin shown isn't really the best marker here. Purpose matters a lot. The current battle skirt and armoured corset may show as much skin as the old swimsuit, but it sends very different signals. The swimsuits shown in your example are constructed more for sports activities than for looking sexy.
    I thought we already agreed The original costume wasn't primarily designed "to look sexy"?

    WW HEROES IN CRISIS 1.jpg
    WW HEROES 4.jpg
    WW HEROES 3.jpg

    I read the first 3 Heroes in Crisis over the weekend and there Clay Mann made the Rebirth costume look as sexy as anything else she's ever worn. Maybe it's the peek-a-boo nature of the panels of the "skirt" but to me it's capable of sending any signal you want it to based on how it's drawn. Therefore she may as well be wearing her original costume.

  4. #94
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Those outfits at least have skirts. Not quite the same as the swim suit. I'd argue they are closer to the current outfit.
    The skirts are see through material, the midriffs are bare and the bikini top leads to a choker collar, they're hardly tame.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Paradise Island started regularly getting called Themyscira in Post-Crisis, didn't it? Since then, how many of the Amazons wear an outfit like her swimsuit?
    1. Artemis WW PARADISE ARTEMIS 2.jpg

    2. Aleka WW PARADISE ALEKA.jpg

    3. Grail WW PARADISE grail.jpg

  5. #95
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I thought we already agreed The original costume wasn't primarily designed "to look sexy"?
    Which "original costume"?

    That's a seriously great infographic with most everyone of Wonder Woman's costumes. Note that the swimsuit is not the original costume. The original one was with coulottes, and then she received what I'd call cycling shorts (but which likely had a different name at that time).

  6. #96
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Which "original costume"?

    That's a seriously great infographic with most everyone of Wonder Woman's costumes. Note that the swimsuit is not the original costume. The original one was with coulottes, and then she received what I'd call cycling shorts (but which likely had a different name at that time).
    The original costume that appeared in Sensation Comics #1

    WW SC 1.jpg


    Also your infographic is missing some prototype looks that didn't make the cut.

    WW PROTOTYPE.jpg

    WW PROTOTYPE 3 wonderwomanoriginal-drawinghgpeter1941-1444152814.jpg

  7. #97
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The original costume that appeared in Sensation Comics #1

    WW SC 1.jpg

    Also your infographic is missing some prototype looks that didn't make the cut.
    It's not my infographic; I sadly have no idea who put it together.

    And note that the original costume with coulottes wasn't what I'd call a swimsuit one. Rather it fit with athletics and gymnastics clothes for women at the time, though with bare shoulders. I view it as rather different from the swimsuit in the message arena.

  8. #98
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    It's not my infographic; I sadly have no idea who put it together.

    And note that the original costume with coulottes wasn't what I'd call a swimsuit one. Rather it fit with athletics and gymnastics clothes for women at the time, though with bare shoulders. I view it as rather different from the swimsuit in the message arena.
    Okay, but you said...

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    It's not only that: it goes back to the clothing that the superhero garbs are inspired by and modelled on. In the case of Superman, it's classic strongman garb, clothing meant to do strength of feats in and handle a lot of stress (that's the origin of the trunks). But in Diana's case, the origin is in the pinup clothing. It's not meant to be practical, only to show off as much body as possible within the bounds of propriety.
    And that's simply not the case, if it were they would have gone with the prototype without modifying it.

    WW PROTOTYPE 2.jpg

    As it stands the culottes went to shorts that got smaller as time passed but they were never meant to be salacious. After all comics then were for children.

    WW DC-Comics-Style-Guide-Wonder-Woman-024.jpg

  9. #99
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Okay, but you said...
    Yeah, before I checked things. That's partly why I linked the infographic, so we could all work from a shared reference. I view the coulottes as better than the cycling pants, but both are better than the swimsuit. Of course, with every uniform posing matters a lot. Pérez could make a powerful and assertive Diana with the swimsuit; Cary Nord can't accomplish the same thing with the battle skirt.

    I don't regard character studies and sketches as notable here. Published material is really what counts here, except for what-if scenarios.

  10. #100
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The skirts are see through material, the midriffs are bare and the bikini top leads to a choker collar, they're hardly tame.



    1. Artemis WW PARADISE ARTEMIS 2.jpg

    2. Aleka WW PARADISE ALEKA.jpg

    3. Grail WW PARADISE grail.jpg
    Grail is not an Amazon. Her mother is, but she's not from their culture. And she's not well regarded among most WW fans.

    That art of Artemis looks like something best left in the past. Its very dated.

  11. #101
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yeah, before I checked things. That's partly why I linked the infographic, so we could all work from a shared reference. I view the coulottes as better than the cycling pants, but both are better than the swimsuit. Of course, with every uniform posing matters a lot. Pérez could make a powerful and assertive Diana with the swimsuit; Cary Nord can't accomplish the same thing with the battle skirt.

    I don't regard character studies and sketches as notable here. Published material is really what counts here, except for what-if scenarios.
    That last picture is from the official 1982 DC Comics Style Guide so unfamiliar artists would know how the company wanted her presented. Note the huge smile and lack protruding naughty bits.

  12. #102
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Grail is not an Amazon. Her mother is, but she's not from their culture. And she's not well regarded among most WW fans.

    That art of Artemis looks like something best left in the past. Its very dated.
    Yeah, well, Byrne.

    Myrina Black raised Grail as a warrior in the Amazon way, despite how well regarded it may be it's cannon.

    WW V Grail Amazon.jpg

    And they both wear modified swimsuit costumes like Diana's, just with chaps and in Myrina's case a jacket.

    WW Myrina Black costume.jpg

    WW V Myrina and Grail.jpg
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 12-11-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  13. #103
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The skirts are see through material, the midriffs are bare and the bikini top leads to a choker collar, they're hardly tame.

    1. Artemis WW PARADISE ARTEMIS 2.jpg

    2. Aleka WW PARADISE ALEKA.jpg

    3. Grail WW PARADISE grail.jpg
    Here posing and details come into play. The first is that Chiang is and was one of the artists that could draw Diana in the swimsuit and make her first and foremost powerful and assertive, not cheesecakey, and he shows that with Aleka too. The other two artists, they are much more doing supermodel poses with Artemis and Grail.

    Second is the details. Aleka shows a lot of skin, but her clothing is fundamentally practical. It shows a lot of skin, but it is not meant to titillate but because it's meant to be comfortable and not restrict movement despite being made of relatively heavy material. Artemis is clearly designed as a fantasy suit, where it looks painted on and has spikes that are probably quite dangerous to the wearer. Grail's suit also looks painted on, and while it seems meant to evoke armour, it has those cutaway pieces for no reason, eg on the thighs, which gives the wearer the worst of two worlds: no protection in parts of the body, and the limited mobility and range of action that comes from wearing upper leg armour.

  14. #104
    Incredible Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Here posing and details come into play. The first is that Chiang is and was one of the artists that could draw Diana in the swimsuit and make her first and foremost powerful and assertive, not cheesecakey, and he shows that with Aleka too. The other two artists, they are much more doing supermodel poses with Artemis and Grail.

    Second is the details. Aleka shows a lot of skin, but her clothing is fundamentally practical. It shows a lot of skin, but it is not meant to titillate but because it's meant to be comfortable and not restrict movement despite being made of relatively heavy material. Artemis is clearly designed as a fantasy suit, where it looks painted on and has spikes that are probably quite dangerous to the wearer. Grail's suit also looks painted on, and while it seems meant to evoke armour, it has those cutaway pieces for no reason, eg on the thighs, which gives the wearer the worst of two worlds: no protection in parts of the body, and the limited mobility and range of action that comes from wearing upper leg armour.
    I'm sorry, but I really couldn't care less. These are comic books, painted on attire is standard for both sexes, so it's not something I personally can get up in arms about. I'm not a cheesecake monitor, I don't take inventory of the amount of skin shown and within reason how a character is posed. I only care that a design is aesthetically pleasing to me. Practicality is for the real world and modesty levels should fit the character. Don't get me wrong, when something is stupid it's stupid, like Cassie's bare midriff bird armor for instance, but I'm willing to ignore a lot. If by chance I do become displeased with an outfit I simply drop the book. That's why I haven't read Batgirl since she changed from the Burnside attire that I liked so well. Fashion is very important to me, practicality is not. That's why I'll buy a great pair of shoes in the wrong size because they're on sale.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 12-11-2018 at 04:19 PM.

  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    So I was in my LCS a couple days ago, saw these covers without reading the title and immediately thought this was a badass new costume for Wonder Woman:

    Turned out, upon second glance, that it is a new series by Dynamite Comics about Dejah Thoris, a character from that old direct predecessor of Superman, John Carter of Mars.

    Overall, they're clearly trying to give Dejah some of Diana's look (well, mixed with She-Ra and Xena). I'm not a fan of the bare belly nor the boots, but the rest of this particular look ... definitely gives me some ideas for Diana.
    Looks like she's fighting orcs.

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