Captain America vs Lion-O

[hareluyafan1]

I'm not discounting the outcome, but what does the Sword of Omens do, exactly?

I mean, I've seen some old episodes of the series. Mainly, it shines a light and drives off Mumm-Ra. And Lion-O uses it to hit things. Nothing else seems to come up.

* It can cut through most materials, including giant boulders, with ease.

* Allows Lion-O to fly.

* Can create force fields.

* Can shoot various energy beams, including lightning, concussive blasts and tractor beams.

* Can extend it's blade to any length. Lion-O has at times used this to pole-vault over obstacles.

* Sight beyond sight allows Lion-O to see across great distances.

* Can be recalled back to Lion-O's hand if dropped.

yeah cap has always taken on opponents way beyond his league like power man the absorbing man the wrecker and managed to win but then again there's the argument that it's plot armour which gives him those wins. he was plainly humiliated by kingpin.

True but we go by high-end feats here. One low-showing doesn't invalidate those. EVERYBODY has defeats and low showings.

Also, losing once to Kingpin is really no disgrace given that Kingpin has beaten or nearly beaten Spiderman at times. Pretty much everyone loses to Kingpin the first time they fight him. I have no doubt that if they had ever fought again Cap would have fared better.

Finally the Cap vs Absorbing Man fight at least had no "plot armour" at all. Cap won by outwitting him (he tricked Creed into trying to absorb his shield and then whipped it aside so Creed's hand touched Cap's arm where his suit was torn. This caused Creed to revert to flesh and blood so Cap could KO him). Tricking him into absorbing the wrong thing is a common way to beat Creed.

[Sol_M]

Pretty much everyone loses to Kingpin the first time they fight him.

Wow, it's like he's a video game boss!

...wait.

[Guy1]

[Cyke]

* It can cut through most materials, including giant boulders, with ease.

* Allows Lion-O to fly.

* Can create force fields.

* Can shoot various energy beams, including lightning, concussive blasts and tractor beams.

* Can extend it's blade to any length. Lion-O has at times used this to pole-vault over obstacles.

* Sight beyond sight allows Lion-O to see across great distances.

* Can be recalled back to Lion-O's hand if dropped.



True but we go by high-end feats here. One low-showing doesn't invalidate those. EVERYBODY has defeats and low showings.

Also, losing once to Kingpin is really no disgrace given that Kingpin has beaten or nearly beaten Spiderman at times. Pretty much everyone loses to Kingpin the first time they fight him. I have no doubt that if they had ever fought again Cap would have fared better.

Finally the Cap vs Absorbing Man fight at least had no "plot armour" at all. Cap won by outwitting him (he tricked Creed into trying to absorb his shield and then whipped it aside so Creed's hand touched Cap's arm where his suit was torn. This caused Creed to revert to flesh and blood so Cap could KO him). Tricking him into absorbing the wrong thing is a common way to beat Creed.

There's also the glove/sword case. It has grapple hooks and is arguably more durable than the sword itself (Lion-O uses it as a shield, and it's never once been broken, penetrated, or otherwise defeated).

[The Chou Lives]

Yeah while the Sword Of Omebs did lose to Thunder Cats Excalibur

[hareluyafan1]

Thank you. I think that proves my point nicely. Cap admits that Fisk is faster and more nimble than he expected. I think it's safe to assume he would have fared better if they had ever fought again.

There's also the glove/sword case. It has grapple hooks and is arguably more durable than the sword itself (Lion-O uses it as a shield, and it's never once been broken, penetrated, or otherwise defeated).

True, the Claw Shield was never breached but to be fair the only times the Sword of Omens failed were

A) Against Excalibur which is really no disgrace (plus it wasn't the sword that broke, just the Eye of Thundera was skewered).

B) In "All That Glitters" it broke because Lion-O used it against a fellow Thundercat (i.e. a metaphysical reason, not a physical one).

C) Tug-Mug snapped it in two.

[Pendaran]

True but we go by high-end feats here. One low-showing doesn't invalidate those. EVERYBODY has defeats and low showings.

We go by high end feats within reason for the characters involved and what their capacities and presentations are. Otherwise you're basically just saying "anything where they looked good counts". Which is not how it works here. Otherwise you're in the land of Deathstroke hitting Flashes and the like.

Also, losing once to Kingpin is really no disgrace given that Kingpin has beaten or nearly beaten Spiderman at times. Pretty much everyone loses to Kingpin the first time they fight him. I have no doubt that if they had ever fought again Cap would have fared better.

Against Classic Fisk? No, not particularly unless Fisk would be written as forgetting his own capacity.

Thank you. I think that proves my point nicely. Cap admits that Fisk is faster and more nimble than he expected. I think it's safe to assume he would have fared better if they had ever fought again.

You point requires Fisk forgetting his own capacity to be made.

Similar to something like the idea of Cap, say, soloing the Wrecker, as opposed to beating him via softening him up through the Avengers training room, in a teamup with Iron Fist, when the Wrecker is power sharing with the rest of the Wrecking Crew. And in some ways even that was a bit much to be honest.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Thank you. I think that proves my point nicely. Cap admits that Fisk is faster and more nimble than he expected. I think it's safe to assume he would have fared better if they had ever fought again.

I don't recall that working too well for Daredevil. Spider-Man, sure, but in addition to Fisk not being as powerful as he used to be, Parker's a lot better in every way possible from when he first tussled with the Kingpin.

[hareluyafan1]

We go by high end feats within reason for the characters involved and what their capacities and presentations are. Otherwise you're basically just saying "anything where they looked good counts". Which is not how it works here. Otherwise you're in the land of Deathstroke hitting Flashes and the like.

Cool.

WeAgainst Classic Fisk? No, not particularly unless Fisk would be written as forgetting his own capacity.

You point requires Fisk forgetting his own capacity to be made.

I'm sorry but I think that sounds unimaginative. It's more than just "capacity" i.e. how it goes on paper. You need to think of these characters as people, with thoughts, experiences, mentalities etc. All these things make a difference. The simple matter of having prior experience and knowing what he's up against would be a factor in Cap's favour.

To clarify, I'm not claiming Cap would have won if he and Fisk had ever had a rematch. Just that I think he'd have lasted a bit longer.

[Pendaran]

I'm sorry but I think that sounds unimaginative. It's more than just "capacity" i.e. how it goes on paper. You need to think of these characters as people, with thoughts, experiences, mentalities etc. All these things make a difference. The simple matter of having prior experience and knowing what he's up against would be a factor in Cap's favour.

And none of that would by contrast matter for Fisk?

[hareluyafan1]

And none of that would by contrast matter for Fisk?

Not really. Cap's a well-known figure who routinely battles super-villains in public. The fact that he's strong, fast, skilled and such is public knowledge. Fisk pretty much already knew everything he could do, there was nothing for him to learn.

By contrast Fisk does not routinely fight dangerous foes in public. As such he was a complete unknown to Cap in that fight and so Cap had more to learn from it. Plus he admits he was surprised by how quick and nimble Fisk was. In a rematch that wouldn't be the case. Fisk wasn't surprised by anything so he doesn't get the same benefit.

[Pendaran]

Not really. Cap's a well-known figure who routinely battles super-villains in public. The fact that he's strong, fast, skilled and such is public knowledge. Fisk pretty much already knew everything he could do, there was nothing for him to learn.

By contrast Fisk does not routinely fight dangerous foes in public. As such he was a complete unknown to Cap in that fight and so Cap had more to learn from it. Plus he admits he was surprised by how quick and nimble Fisk was. In a rematch that wouldn't be the case. Fisk wasn't surprised by anything so he doesn't get the same benefit.

That's certainly a convenient thing to say about a guy who prepares himself for getting into fights with Daredevil and the like.

[hareluyafan1]

That's certainly a convenient thing to say about a guy who prepares himself for getting into fights with Daredevil and the like.

Sorry, I don't get your point.

[The Chou Lives]

Pen is saying that Fisk preps himselfbto deal with Dare Devil regularly, that’s why he is a nimble guy despite all that bulk.

Given Dare Devil is faster than Cap and all. (Comics anyway, do not have Netflix.)

[hareluyafan1]

Pen is saying that Fisk preps himselfbto deal with Dare Devil regularly, that’s why he is a nimble guy despite all that bulk.

Given Dare Devil is faster than Cap and all. (Comics anyway, do not have Netflix.)

Thanks.

Yes, that's my point. Fisk has prepared himself to fight superheroes. Captain America is a well-known superhero. Fisk already knew what to expect so he wouldn't really learn anything new from that bout. Certainly not as much as Cap would have learned about him.