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  1. #46
    Speed Demon Inertia's Avatar
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    Now that I'm hearing so many good things about this book, I'll be definitely getting it.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReverseReverseFlash View Post
    I still don't understand the Joker thing. It wasn't a plot twist or a revelation, nor does it have any weight on their long-term careers. As far as Joker antics go, they weren't divided when he killed Jason Todd or shot Batgirl, but they're divided when he has a fake dinner party and doesn't hurt anyone.
    The Joker totally killed a whole bunch of Nightwing's childhood friends and meanwhile Batman is still insisting the Joker is his alone and they shouldn't get involved and won't tell him all he knows about the Joker. Then he apologises. And then he proceeds to make ll the same mistakes here. I agree that being spiteful isn't very productive but Batman is the one that came to talk to Tim here, and then proceeded to not share what he knows. I'd be so utterly done with Batman's bull if I was Dick or Tim too.

  3. #48
    Mighty Member nepenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABH-1979 View Post
    I had started to forget that I actually liked the character.
    This describes my own thoughts reading the issue.

  4. #49
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReverseReverseFlash View Post
    I still don't understand the Joker thing. It wasn't a plot twist or a revelation, nor does it have any weight on their long-term careers. As far as Joker antics go, they weren't divided when he killed Jason Todd or shot Batgirl, but they're divided when he has a fake dinner party and doesn't hurt anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin Truth View Post
    The point was that it seemed like Batman didn't trust the Bat family enough to tell them the whole story behind Joker's claims about knowing who they really are.
    Snyder, and in this case Snyder's lieutenants, really love to play around with certain recurring themes. Family is one of them. Arguably, one of the problems that DotF had, beyond the poorly chosen title and the confused plotting, was that the main theme was really too subtle for a comic book. Snyder was riffing on the idea that family depends on trust and assumptions, and when that trust and those assumptions are betrayed, the consequences are major and long-lasting, if not immediately obvious. Thus the Bat Family assumed Bruce would not withhold important information like Joker's knowledge and plans; Bruce assumed his family would never believe the claims of the Joker of all people; and the Joker, unsurprisingly the most delusional of all, believed Batman really did love their "game" and really would be grateful to be relieved of the burden of his "relatives." The fallout from DotF is the fallout from all of them being proved wrong to one degree or the other. Since the next Joker story Snyder is planning depends on Joker's reaction to his disappointment, the references to DotF and its fallout aren't going to stop any time soon.

    Another theme that Snyder keeps returning to, and that Tim seems to reference in Eternal #5, is his idea of Gotham as a living, essentially mystical entity with its more colorful inhabitants being avatars of various aspects of the city's being. The Bat Family seem to be embodiments and representations of many of the good aspects of Gotham, its order and health and sanity. This is what is probably meant when Tim talks about something being "broken beneath," with all the pain in the Bat Family and, when Batman brushes that aside saying "this isn't about that, this is about the city," Tim says, "Exactly." As living reflections of the city, the health of the Bat Family reflects the state of Gotham. When the city becomes ill and broken, the family does, too. Mystical, yes, but that is the kind of theme Snyder has been working with since "Dark Mirror."

    Beyond all that, there is the interesting fact that Tim seems to blame Bruce for Dick's "death." Or at least, he seems to feel that Bruce has some responsibility and guilt. One wonders if anything specific is going to happen at the end of Forever Evil to make it seem that Bruce specifically is responsible for Nightwing's demise. My guess is probably not. Since Tim was lost in time when all that happened, he would have no way of knowing specifics unless it was something very obvious and public indeed. It is likely more a reaction to the general "keeping secrets" thing and the way that Bruce has now lost three "sons" in about three years. No wonder he is wary of cooperating with the man.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 05-07-2014 at 06:15 PM.

  5. #50
    Spectacular Member Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReverseReverseFlash View Post
    I still don't understand the Joker thing. It wasn't a plot twist or a revelation, nor does it have any weight on their long-term careers. As far as Joker antics go, they weren't divided when he killed Jason Todd or shot Batgirl, but they're divided when he has a fake dinner party and doesn't hurt anyone.
    It's just another example of Bruce's compulsion to manipulate the people around him. Knowing what he does about the Joker, he knew the Joker didn't really want to know their identities, so the card was just a bluff. He also knew he wouldn't be able to convince the others of this if he told them. They would probably want to take JOker out to prevent him from using that knowledge to kill them or people close to him. To avoid all that messiness, Bruce decides to just not tell them. So when the whole cardgate blows up, the main jist of Bats argument is "you wouldn't have listened to me even though I'm right, so to prevent you from not doing what I say, I kept the information from your ignorant fool selves." This is followed by Dicky's whole circus family being wiped out and Babs mother being kidnapped and mutilated. Oops. But no, Bruce still insists he's right. It's all just a coincidence. And at this point they're all fed up with his nonsense. Especially when you consider the fact that, to them, so what if they kill the Joker and he never really knew their identities? Who cares right. Nobody. Except Bruce, evidently. The impression is given that Bruce cares more about protecting the Joker from them then protecting them from the Joker.

  6. #51
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    Or he knew that if they went after the Joker, he'd be ready for them and they'd be killed or maimed. He's done it before. Hey Jason, remember when the Joker killed you? Hey Barbara, remember when the Joker crippled you? Hey Tim, remember the times that the Joker has captured you? Rushing in blindly would have been catastrophically stupid on their part.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member AlexanderLuthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Snyder, and in this case Snyder's lieutenants, really love to play around with certain recurring themes. Family is one of them. Arguably, one of the problems that DotF had, beyond the poorly chosen title and the confused plotting, was that the main theme was really too subtle for a comic book. Snyder was riffing on the idea that family depends on trust and assumptions, and when that trust and those assumptions are betrayed, the consequences are major and long-lasting, if not immediately obvious. Thus the Bat Family assumed Bruce would not withhold important information like Joker's knowledge and plans; Bruce assumed his family would never believe the claims of the Joker of all people; and the Joker, unsurprisingly the most delusional of all, believed Batman really did love their "game" and really would be grateful to be relieved of the burden of his "relatives." The fallout from DotF is the fallout from all of them being proved wrong to one degree or the other. Since the next Joker story Snyder is planning depends on Joker's reaction to his disappointment, the references to DotF and its fallout aren't going to stop any time soon.

    Another theme that Snyder keeps returning to, and that Tim seems to reference in Eternal #5, is his idea of Gotham as a living, essentially mystical entity with its more colorful inhabitants being avatars of various aspects of the city's being. The Bat Family seem to be embodiments and representations of many of the good aspects of Gotham, its order and health and sanity. This is what is probably meant when Tim talks about something being "broken beneath," with all the pain in the Bat Family and, when Batman brushes that aside saying "this isn't about that, this is about the city," Tim says, "Exactly." As living reflections of the city, the health of the Bat Family reflects the state of Gotham. When the city becomes ill and broken, the family does, too. Mystical, yes, but that is the kind of theme Snyder has been working with since "Dark Mirror."

    Beyond all that, there is the interesting fact that Tim seems to blame Bruce for Dick's "death." Or at least, he seems to feel that Bruce has some responsibility and guilt. One wonders if anything specific is going to happen at the end of Forever Evil to make it seem that Bruce specifically is responsible for Nightwing's demise. My guess is probably not. Since Tim was lost in time when all that happened, he would have no way of knowing specifics unless it was something very obvious and public indeed. It is likely more a reaction to the general "keeping secrets" thing and the way that Bruce has now lost three "sons" in about three years. No wonder he is wary of cooperating with the man.
    I wish we could sticky this post. I would just add that in the DoTF case - I also think most of them have a hard time believing that the Joker doesn't know who they are (Joker's references to the "cave they hide in", the playing card being there, the fact that he takes Alfred as his first victim) whether Bruce believes it or not. The fact that it's a close call and he didn't tell them after what happened to Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon potentially put them in a terrible danger they weren't even aware of - all because Bruce "knows best" and didn't trust them.

    Totally agree with your second point.

    It will be interesting to see how it goes down in FE #7. This certainly suggests that Bruce is somewhat to blame for what happens to Dick. It's an odd thing to say - "that worked pretty well for Nightwing didn't it". It could just be Tim lashing out and knowing that would hurt Bruce. Or it might be something more

  8. #53
    Overly Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    So last week everyone spent pages whining that Layman made references to his stories, and this week only two people have brought up DotF and both in a positive manner? The idea that DotF had any effect on the Family is laughable, but hey he's Snyder so we're just going to accept it. Okay, I got that out of my system.

    Tynion's Tim is so much better than Lobdell's. It took two panels for me to be pleased about the new characterization. I think the story might still be a little too complex to make readers feel a need for it every week, but it's a decent story that I want more of. I'm still lost on what parts of this are important or not; Deacon Blackfire, Steph, Harper, all feel a little unnecessary. I think it can be tied into a coherent story but, I think it might be better in a full book format rather than 20 pages at a time. The more crazy the stories become the more I just want to see a bird war between Falcone and Penguin.

    Also this proves my point about Nightwing not being redundant in Gotham. He was so redundant they've replaced him with Babs, Tim, Steph, Harper, and I'll be surprised if Jason and Calvin don't show up soon.

  9. #54
    Fantastic Member toddx77's Avatar
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    When Tim asked if they could go back to being Batman and Red Robin does that mean at one time he was Batman's side kick as Red Robin? I know in the new 52 Tim has never been Robin, just Red Robin, but I always thought he fought solo right away kind of like Batwoman.

  10. #55
    Amazing Member Ginkasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddx77 View Post
    When Tim asked if they could go back to being Batman and Red Robin does that mean at one time he was Batman's side kick as Red Robin? I know in the new 52 Tim has never been Robin, just Red Robin, but I always thought he fought solo right away kind of like Batwoman.
    No, he was definitely Batman's partner.

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member Super-Cyke's Avatar
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    I would like to read Batman Eternal for the Tim Drake stuff. But I stopped supporting any of DC's current titles so I'm gonna have to sit this out.

  12. #57
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    So last week everyone spent pages whining that Layman made references to his stories, and this week only two people have brought up DotF and both in a positive manner? The idea that DotF had any effect on the Family is laughable, but hey he's Snyder so we're just going to accept it. Okay, I got that out of my system.
    The characters say that DotF had an effect. The characters act as if DotF had an effect. Saying something had an effect and acting as if something had an effect is, on the face of it, having an effect. After all, Tim isn't just having a teenage snit.

    Also this proves my point about Nightwing not being redundant in Gotham. He was so redundant they've replaced him with Babs, Tim, Steph, Harper, and I'll be surprised if Jason and Calvin don't show up soon.
    What would have made him NOT redundant? If he was missed? He is missed, to the point of Tim jabbing at Bruce with a sharpness reminiscent of Jason in a foul temper. If no one could fulfill his function? That has never been the case. Even when Bruce first took in Jason 2.0 in 1985 or so, it was because he was lonely, not because he could not do without Dick's specific activities. It isn't as if Gotham or Batman ever fell apart in Dick's absence. It didn't now, but also not a year ago when Dick moved to Chicago, not in 1980 when the New Teen Titans appeared, not in 1969 when Dick went to college.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 05-08-2014 at 02:58 AM.

  13. #58
    CBR got me like.. Maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Another cool issue. Nice to see some supernatural elements playing through. Loved that they're not going to let the DOTF stuff fizzle out. It's obviously a big deal to the characters, so I don't get why it would be "laughable" that it has an effect. Tim's written the best he's been written in the new 52, so let's hope that keeps up.

    One gripe I have is that I found it a little hard to swallow that Harper could take out 5 thugs by herself, but I'm willing to let it slide. I enjoyed her very much in this issue.

    Really enjoying the Gazette/GCPD storylines.
    Last edited by Maxpower00044; 05-08-2014 at 08:21 AM.

  14. #59
    Support Your LCS CatBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxpower00044 View Post
    One gripe I have is that I found it a little hard to swallow that Harper could take out 5 thugs by herself, but I'm willing to let it slide. I enjoyed her very much in this issue.
    Well we all know that they're driving to Harper becoming Bluebird and officially part of the Bat-Family, so beating up 5 thugs would be a prerequisite to that.

    Great issue. I really hope they can keep up the quality in this series week after week.
    Current Pull List: Catwoman - Batman - Detective Comics - Harley Quinn - Grayson - Batgirl - Afterlife With Archie - Chilling Adventures of Sabrina - Harley Quinn/Power Girl - Black Canary - Midnighter

  15. #60
    Overly Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxpower00044 View Post
    Loved that they're not going to let the DOTF stuff fizzle out. It's obviously a big deal to the characters, so I don't get why it would be "laughable" that it has an effect.
    Because they've all been captured and mentally tortured by the Joker (and many many others) before. For crying out loud he broke Babs back and beat Jason to death with a crowbar. DotF was basically another day at work. Nothing happened that hasn't happened before, there was no amazing reveal of new information, there was no reason for anyone to care. They got captured, Batman saved them, and tried to save The Joker just like countless encounters before. The real effect came when they couldn't save Damian (who will come back this summer), and now Dick has "died" making the feeling even worse, both of which had nothing to do with The Joker.

    If last week was Layman promoting his stories and villains, then this week was Tynion writing a love letter to Snyder. Really I think both issues deserve more credit than that. Last week was great, and this week felt important even if it was just another setup issue for more stories.

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