Batman Eternal #5 Preview/Discussion

[Maxpower00044]

Well we all know that they're driving to Harper becoming Bluebird and officially part of the Bat-Family, so beating up 5 thugs would be a prerequisite to that.

Great issue. I really hope they can keep up the quality in this series week after week.

Yeah, I understand that. It just felt a little off without any formal training. Like I said, it's all good though.

[Maxpower00044]

Because they've all been captured and mentally tortured by the Joker (and many many others) before. For crying out loud he broke Babs back and beat Jason to death with a crowbar. DotF was basically another day at work. Nothing happened that hasn't happened before, there was no amazing reveal of new information, there was no reason for anyone to care. They got captured, Batman saved them, and tried to save The Joker just like countless encounters before. The real effect came when they couldn't save Damian (who will come back this summer), and now Dick has "died" making the feeling even worse, both of which had nothing to do with The Joker.

You say they shouldn't care yet, it's still affecting the characters. So, they care. I'm not worried about what readers interpret, want, or think. The characters are still acting like it got to them, so, it obviously did have repercussions.

If last week was Layman promoting his stories and villains, then this week was Tynion writing a love letter to Snyder. Really I think both issues deserve more credit than that. Last week was great, and this week felt important even if it was just another setup issue for more stories.

I don't remember one complaint about what Layman did last week. In fact, all the posts I saw applauded him for doing that.

[Punisher007]

But that doesn't mean that it "having repercussions" makes sense given what we know about these character. "They are still acting like it got to them" doesn't automatically make it GOOD writing. In this case, it DOESN'T make sense that they'd be acting this way given their pasts, it's just a forced/contrived conflict that needs to end.

[Maxpower00044]

But that doesn't mean that it "having repercussions" makes sense given what we know about these character. "They are still acting like it got to them" doesn't automatically make it GOOD writing. In this case, it DOESN'T make sense that they'd be acting this way given their pasts, it's just a forced/contrived conflict that needs to end.

It doesn't make it BAD writing, either. Once again, just because you don't agree with a writer doesn't mean it's bad writing.

"Given their pasts". It's a new universe/continuity, so "their pasts" really don't matter much (unless they straight up reference it).

[Conway]

It doesn't make it BAD writing, either. Once again, just because you don't agree with a writer doesn't mean it's bad writing.

"Given their pasts". It's a new universe/continuity, so "their pasts" really don't matter much (unless they straight up reference it).

All I'm saying is that DotF was a "Tuesday" for these characters. How many times have each of them been captured and held against their will while being tortured in the New 52? It's happened twice to Nightwing in his own title and twice to him in Batman. I don't read Batgirl on a regular basis but I know it happened at least twice. The entire first arc of Teen Titans was about Tim being captured and forced to fight. Jason has been rescued by his friends more than once.

Telling us that the Joker story was different doesn't make it different (regardless of whether or not it was good writing). I think Tim's dig at Bruce would have had more effect if he just brought up Damian and Dick. Bringing up another one of Joker's failure takes away from the importance of two of his sons dying (or "dying").

Yes, I did see lots of complaints and comments about Layman focusing on his characters (Wrath, Emperor) in the Iron Heights scene, but the difference is that everyone arrested in the other titles has ended up in Arkham. The writer trained by Snyder bringing up a failed Joker attack, and featuring the character he created (Harper) in a leading role does have a little bit of hero worship. Yet no-one mentioned it for 4 pages this week, and even then it was only in a positive fashion. I was just expressing my frustration with that.

I think the story is good, and the focus on the writers isn't doing it justice. The scope is huge, I realize we're going to get 52 issues of this but I wouldn't mind some payoff. I'm hoping all of these setups don't last for 10 issues before the story starts to advance.

[RobinFan4880]

The issue wasn't that the Joker kidnapped them, it was that Batman seriously betrayed the family's trust (which obviously had never happened in the New 52).

This betrayal of trust would have had more relevance and weight to the over-arching Batman story if a) Snyder had not jumped from DotF to Zero Year, b) it didn't take us a year to see more interaction between Bruce and the family, c) if Damian had not been killed at basically the same time as DotF and d) Dick hadn't "died" recently.

[InformationGeek]

Yes, I did see lots of complaints and comments about Layman focusing on his characters (Wrath, Emperor) in the Iron Heights scene, but the difference is that everyone arrested in the other titles has ended up in Arkham. The writer trained by Snyder bringing up a failed Joker attack, and featuring the character he created (Harper) in a leading role does have a little bit of hero worship. Yet no-one mentioned it for 4 pages this week, and even then it was only in a positive fashion. I was just expressing my frustration with that.

Where did you see the lots of comments and complaints about Layman focusing on his characters? Because the only people who brought them up was me pointing them out (I liked their characters and wanted to mentioned they made an appearance) and FHIZ who responded to me. Where was this negativity you speak of?

Also, how is this hero worship to mention or focus on things he has help co-write before with his friend?

[ispacehead]

The idea that DotF had any effect on the Family is laughable,

I hated DotF, but to be fair it is part of the new 52 and was supposed to be a big deal to the characters involved.

While I don't care for the huge chip it's put on Tim's shoulder, I don't think it's out of character for this version of the character to include Bruce's DotF "betrayal" in his list of grievances.

His list was summed up nicely at least.

As far as Layman's book last week, I recall a couple people acknowledging that the writer had referenced his own characters, but I don't seem to remember any "whining."

I thought the issue was the first decent Bat offering from Layman so far.

[Maxpower00044]

Telling us that the Joker story was different doesn't make it different (regardless of whether or not it was good writing). I think Tim's dig at Bruce would have had more effect if he just brought up Damian and Dick. Bringing up another one of Joker's failure takes away from the importance of two of his sons dying (or "dying").

Tim mentioned both Damian and Dick....

Yes, I did see lots of complaints and comments about Layman focusing on his characters (Wrath, Emperor) in the Iron Heights scene, but the difference is that everyone arrested in the other titles has ended up in Arkham. The writer trained by Snyder bringing up a failed Joker attack, and featuring the character he created (Harper) in a leading role does have a little bit of hero worship. Yet no-one mentioned it for 4 pages this week, and even then it was only in a positive fashion. I was just expressing my frustration with that

I'm pretty sure informationgeek nailed it on the head with this one. Only a couple of people talked about it and none of it was negative. Is it really getting to point where we have to critique the same writers for the same things, and if we don't, we are favoring one of them?

[RKitch]

I have to agree that Tim probably has a longer list of grievances than almost every other member of the Bat-Family. There was the entire deal with Frankenstein in Batman & Red Robin, plus there's some other stuff, like Death of the Family. Not to mention other members like Batgirl have moved on from it.

As for Layman referencing characters from his Detective Comics run, it makes sense anyway since any other writer probably would have done the same thing.

[Conway]

Tim mentioned both Damian and Dick....

That's why I used the qualifier "just" in my sentence.

I'm pretty sure informationgeek nailed it on the head with this one. Only a couple of people talked about it and none of it was negative. Is it really getting to point where we have to critique the same writers for the same things, and if we don't, we are favoring one of them?

Since we can't reference the thread this discussion can't really go anywhere. I can accept ispacehead's description of it though. There was at least three mentions of it per page of the thread, but nost of them were just noting it and not saying anything negative about it. I do think there was only one or two positive references to it though.

I have to agree that Tim probably has a longer list of grievances than almost every other member of the Bat-Family. There was the entire deal with Frankenstein in Batman & Red Robin, plus there's some other stuff, like Death of the Family. Not to mention other members like Batgirl have moved on from it.

That's kind of my point. There are many more issues Tim could have raised (like the fact that he's been accused of the mass murder of scores of New Yorkers and Batman didn't come to his defense). For him to even mention the Joker thing felt like it was trivializing the deaths of his brothers (even if he's only close with Jason in this continuity). There was no reason at all for him to put that incident on the same level as their failures to protect Damian and Dick. To me it was the only part of Tim's dialog that felt out of place (and even that was better than anything Lobdell had him say in 32 issues).

As for Harper, her performance is what I would expect from the company that is trying to force her into a position as a "fan favorite". It didn't really detract at all from the writing, and it fit into the plot seamlessly. Also, they are finally trying to do something with the true fan favorite Steph, at least.

[Claude]

I have to be honest, this issue was the first time that I really bought the idea that DOTF might have caused a rift in the Bat Family. Not, as such, because of it's own importance - but because it's the kind of thing they would have gotten over pretty quickly, except Damien died. And - as we see in Batman And Robin - Dick was the only one who could properly engage with Bruce after that. And then he - as far as everyone knows - died.

So, looking back, it seems pretty natural that Tim and Barbara would see the Joker's kidnap as the start of "everything going wrong". Especially given that it was an undercurrent in DOTF that the Joker was going to some effort to make what he did seem mythological, waiting for wierd crap to happen before he could burst up and look as if he was surrounded by signs and portents.

[JaggedFel]

Well true its hard to intentionally make a fan favorite but if I remember correctly Damian was pretty darn hated when he first appeared on the scene.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

It is pretty silly that Tim got trapped in the future and had to fight a colony of metahuman kids to survive, but the little dinner party with the Joker is the one thing stuck with him.

[Penguin Truth]

It is pretty silly that Tim got trapped in the future and had to fight a colony of metahuman kids to survive, but the little dinner party with the Joker is the one thing stuck with him.

You think the Batman writers want to suffer through Scott Lobdell's Teen Titans?