Tony Stark, at the end of, Civil War

[Huntsman Spider]

I was under the impression when I read the issue that both Jan and Tony were attracted to each other and were trying to forget people they loved. Jan had a choice there and was free to persue another relationship after Hank.
And I don't see how that was an obsession. From what I read so far, Tony seems to have Pepper and Natasha in high regard and treats them as beloved friends. He seems to respect Bethany and be ok about not date her anymore. And he was always professional towards Mary Jane in his very few interactions with her that time she worked for Stark Industries. And seems to respect Jean Grey a lot as well.

I'm sorry and I'm not triyng to create a debate, but when you put like this seems that this female characters are being portrayed in this storylines as merely objects or as victimis from a creppy. And in fact all of them had an active voice and choose to his friends/girlfriend/empolyee/comrade.
I never read the Civil War and The Crossing stuff, but from the comments I understand why people are still upset with the characterization, but I think the other plots were perfectly fine, don't understand the hate.

It's a debate that's been raging for a long time in the fandom, well before I was old enough to start grasping the moral and personal complexities of a lot of it. For example, we have Hank Pym, who gave Janet van Dyne a black eye in the midst of a psychotic breakdown that also saw him sic a robot on the Avengers that he would conveniently defeat so that the Avengers would see how "essential" and "necessary" he was to the team and not kick him out. We also have Tony Stark, who was frankly a womanizing cad before becoming Iron Man and (maybe) retains some of that attitude and demeanor to a certain extent, even if he's focused more on other things these days. That's just the personal aspect, though it's no less important than the "superhero" aspect. Naturally, with characters like Pym and Stark that are emphasized as deeply personally flawed despite being placed as heroes, the question really becomes, "Is there such a thing as good people who do bad things, or are they just bad people who do good things to hide it . . . until they don't or can't hide it anymore?"

[Agent Z]

they are irrelevant because Teen Tony didn't commit them. he was aged to full adulthood to replace the other guy. and Pym is apparently quite okay with genocide. his skrull (amnesic at the time but having Pym's brain patterns), created a virus to wipe out mutantkind. ultron, possessed of hank's brain patterns, murdered the slorenians. and, shortly before becoming merged with Ultron, Pym tried to murder all of the Descendants (sentient beings).

That doesn't prove he was okay with genocide. The Skrulls simply copied the brain patterns of the Earth people they possessed but that isn't the same thing as having their full personalities. You might as well claim Spider-Woman was evil because she was impersonated by a Skrull who copied her brain patterns. And I'm not seeing how Pym is to blame for something he did while possessed.

[Michael Watkins]

That doesn't prove he was okay with genocide. The Skrulls simply copied the brain patterns of the Earth people they possessed but that isn't the same thing as having their full personalities. You might as well claim Spider-Woman was evil because she was impersonated by a Skrull who copied her brain patterns. And I'm not seeing how Pym is to blame for something he did while possessed.

he wasn't possessed when he tried to murder the descendants. and I brought up House of M because they were all amnesic. he fully believed himself to be Pym.

[Tony Stark]

I was under the impression when I read the issue that both Jan and Tony were attracted to each other and were trying to forget people they loved. Jan had a choice there and was free to persue another relationship after Hank.
And I don't see how that was an obsession. From what I read so far, Tony seems to have Pepper and Natasha in high regard and treats them as beloved friends. He seems to respect Bethany and be ok about not date her anymore. And he was always professional towards Mary Jane in his very few interactions with her that time she worked for Stark Industries. And seems to respect Jean Grey a lot as well.

I'm sorry and I'm not triyng to create a debate, but when you put like this seems that this female characters are being portrayed in this storylines as merely objects or as victimis from a creppy. And in fact all of them had an active voice and choose to his friends/girlfriend/empolyee/comrade.
I never read the Civil War and The Crossing stuff, but from the comments I understand why people are still upset with the characterization, but I think the other plots were perfectly fine, don't understand the hate.

Beautifully stated. Obviously someone that read and knows Tony. Not someones fanfic ideas.

[Agent Z]

he wasn't possessed when he tried to murder the descendants. and I brought up House of M because they were all amnesic. he fully believed himself to be Pym.

Yes he was.

Believi g himself to be Pym and acting as Pym would are two different things.

[okiedokiewo]

- An unhealthy obsession with redheaded women (Pepper, Natasha, Bethany, Mary Jane, and probably Jean Grey)

Oh, boy...

[Snoop Dogg]

in this house and all others, my son tony stark respects women

[Michael Watkins]

Yes he was.

Believi g himself to be Pym and acting as Pym would are two different things.

that's your evidence. mine is that Ultron has also attempted genocide. and Pym did so against the Descendants. it's all him.

[jackolover]

that's one way to interpret it. I took it (as Iron Man interpreted it) as it really being Pym and not just Ultron impersonating Pym. because he kept trying to deflect and point out the mistakes others had made instead of accounting for his own. he was being extremely whiny. I get why Pym fans might see it as the character putting the others in their place. but you'd have to read right over Stark explicitly saying that Pym beating up Jan is what caused the Avengers rift, in the first place. his words rung true. they were the heart of the team. and Pym ruined all of that. this was driven home by the reveal that he was aiding the anti-secret empire side simply because it would lead to more violence.




respectfully, that is bullcrap. they let Pym right back into the roster without bringing up his treasonous actions. and he has been invited back several times (apparently Tony is the only one who cared about Janet). Stark has never asked for forgiveness. he just assembles a team. and they follow him because he's a leader. Steve Rogers once hunted Tony through time and space to get revenge. so Pym can get in line if he wants to talk about being mistreated.



his hands were the dirtiest. the most devastating blows that the skrulls struck were done with Pym's brain. and he, a founding avenger, let himself be duped by a skrull (all while trying to get back at Jan). all it had to do was stroke his ego a bit. and he was the perfect dupe because he had ruined his own reputation/had the image of being unstable. there was no way for the others to suspect him as a skrull because he's generally flaky/unpredictable. do I even need to bring up how he abandoned Jack of Hearts at a critical moment (to go strut around Vegas naked)?



does it not bother anyone that Pym's most identifiable characteristic is his woe-as-me attitude?

Well, Reed and Tony did outright refuse to return a device to him because they couldn’t trust him anymore. That’s got to hurt. That’s bullying someone. And this after Tony and Reed were comrades of Pym in CW.

[Tony Stark]

Well, Reed and Tony did outright refuse to return a device to him because they couldn’t trust him anymore. That’s got to hurt. That’s bullying someone. And this after Tony and Reed were comrades of Pym in CW.

Reed didn't want to return the invention to Pym. Tony didn't have anything to do with that interaction.

[jackolover]

Maybe it wasn’t Tony. Maybe it was someone else? I haven’t got the story in front of me at the moment.

[Shadowcat]

I wonder if we’ll get a new Ghost and Spymaster story under Slott. Also, please do something magical with Madame Masque. Her ride or die chick status under Bendis was so disrespectful.

[Snoop Dogg]

I wonder if we’ll get a new Ghost and Spymaster story under Slott. Also, please do something magical with Madame Masque. Her ride or die chick status under Bendis was so disrespectful.

Dan said that the spies like Ghost and Spymaster are the coolest Iron Man villains.

[Tony Stark]

Maybe it wasn’t Tony. Maybe it was someone else? I haven’t got the story in front of me at the moment.

I'm telling you it wasn't Tony. The story you are talking about happened in Slott's Avengers. That's were Reed and Pym got into about the invention.

[theoneandonly]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.