Tony Stark, at the end of, Civil War

[Tony Stark]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.

I totally agree with you on Peter getting a pass. It's disgusting what he did to MJ.

[MichaelC]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.

Because of pure tribalism. They like Spider-Man. They've liked Spider-Man since they were children, in many cases. So everything Spider-Man does gets viewed through rose-colored glasses, or dismissed as bad writing and thus not part of their personal canon. Whereas everything characters they don't like do is viewed through the harshest possible lens and sticks like glue.

[Michael Watkins]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.

long live the superior spider-man!

[Huntsman Spider]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.

I totally agree with you on Peter getting a pass. It's disgusting what he did to MJ.

Because of pure tribalism. They like Spider-Man. They've liked Spider-Man since they were children, in many cases. So everything Spider-Man does gets viewed through rose-colored glasses, or dismissed as bad writing and thus not part of their personal canon. Whereas everything characters they don't like do is viewed through the harshest possible lens and sticks like glue.

long live the superior spider-man!

As a ride-or-die Spider-Man fan since childhood, I actually do have to agree with you guys. I could protest that Peter wasn't in his right mind at the time, either. I could offer the context that he was actually trying to kill his own clone, the man whose life he'd just saved earlier in that same issue and who had sacrificed his own freedom for Peter's sake several issues/arcs previously, and blindly lashed out at anyone interrupting his single-minded murderous vendetta. Alas, that wouldn't be enough, nothing would be enough, to mitigate that Peter struck his own pregnant wife in a blind rage and could have seriously injured if not outright killed her (and the baby), which in its own way is a bigger and more permanent black mark on him than One More Day ever could be.

As for the fan tribalism argument MichaelC presents, you can also blame Marvel for minimizing, if not flat-out erasing, what Peter did in that issue, largely because Spider-Man is Marvel's flagship hero and Marvel understandably wants people to like him enough to buy his comics and watch his movies/TV shows and play his videogames. On the other hand, a lot of people at Marvel feel nothing but apathy at best and contempt at worst for Hank Pym, not only because of what he did to Janet, but more so because they think, "His powers are stupid, he's a second-rate genius compared to Reed Richards, and he doesn't even have a cool gimmick like Tony Stark and his armors." So it's easier for them to highlight his many wrongdoings and failures and make him out to be at best a pathetic loser and at worst a supervillain in denial (or not so much in denial, given the Ultron merger), but they wouldn't dare emphasize Peter Parker's less likeable traits or qualities, because that would make him less marketable to the fans, and Marvel --- contrary to what some might believe --- is not in the business of deliberately losing money or market value.

[Snoop Dogg]

Writers mine that Hank breakdown story because the Hank breakdown story is the seminal Hank story. It's so interesting that it's basically his second origin. That is why the slap will never be forgotten. Because it shouldn't.

Peter's smack has been forgotten because it's Spider-Man, and it happened in one of the most chaotic Spider-Man stories. There are so many Spider-Man moments and stories that Peter doing that really bad thing has been lost to history. And because he's the most popular character, the relatable everyman, Marvel doesn't want to bring it back up. I don't even know if that's the right or wrong thing to do. I guess it would depend on the story.

[Ana]

obvious bee in bonnet aside I wonder why no one brings up Peter Parker doing the same thing that Hank did and so did Reed Richards( although sue is possessed at the time) all of them should be equally condemned if Hank isn't to be excused despite being mentally ill then Peter certainly doesn't get a pass for sending mj crashing while pregnant which was catastrophically worse than what Hank did.

I totally agree with you on Peter getting a pass. It's disgusting what he did to MJ.

Because of pure tribalism. They like Spider-Man. They've liked Spider-Man since they were children, in many cases. So everything Spider-Man does gets viewed through rose-colored glasses, or dismissed as bad writing and thus not part of their personal canon. Whereas everything characters they don't like do is viewed through the harshest possible lens and sticks like glue.

long live the superior spider-man!

Everyone is going to favor some character. In my opinion all of this is due to questionable choices from writers. They want to tell a story and need some actions from characters. I think the best way sometimes is let it go and move on. Most of these characters did face consequences for bad moments.

As a ride-or-die Spider-Man fan since childhood, I actually do have to agree with you guys. I could protest that Peter wasn't in his right mind at the time, either. I could offer the context that he was actually trying to kill his own clone, the man whose life he'd just saved earlier in that same issue and who had sacrificed his own freedom for Peter's sake several issues/arcs previously, and blindly lashed out at anyone interrupting his single-minded murderous vendetta. Alas, that wouldn't be enough, nothing would be enough, to mitigate that Peter struck his own pregnant wife in a blind rage and could have seriously injured if not outright killed her (and the baby), which in its own way is a bigger and more permanent black mark on him than One More Day ever could be.

As for the fan tribalism argument MichaelC presents, you can also blame Marvel for minimizing, if not flat-out erasing, what Peter did in that issue, largely because Spider-Man is Marvel's flagship hero and Marvel understandably wants people to like him enough to buy his comics and watch his movies/TV shows and play his videogames. On the other hand, a lot of people at Marvel feel nothing but apathy at best and contempt at worst for Hank Pym, not only because of what he did to Janet, but more so because they think, "His powers are stupid, he's a second-rate genius compared to Reed Richards, and he doesn't even have a cool gimmick like Tony Stark and his armors." So it's easier for them to highlight his many wrongdoings and failures and make him out to be at best a pathetic loser and at worst a supervillain in denial (or not so much in denial, given the Ultron merger), but they wouldn't dare emphasize Peter Parker's less likeable traits or qualities, because that would make him less marketable to the fans, and Marvel --- contrary to what some might believe --- is not in the business of deliberately losing money or market value.

I agree. As for Hank Pym never read too much with him. But in SE I was under the impression that he is a portrayal of a severely mental ill man. Someone that the Avengers did fail to help. I feel sorry for him, not hate.

[theoneandonly]

I totally agree with you on Peter getting a pass. It's disgusting what he did to MJ.

yes more than omd it's one thing that he shouldn't ever forget doing whenever he sees mj.

Because of pure tribalism. They like Spider-Man. They've liked Spider-Man since they were children, in many cases. So everything Spider-Man does gets viewed throughout rose-colored glasses, or dismissed as bad writing and thus not part of their personal canon. Whereas everything characters they don't like do is viewed through the harshest possible lens and sticks like glue.

you have put your finger on the nub of the issue. every character is judged according to different parameters depending upon how well loved or regarded he is as a character. thus spider man's toxic storylines always tend to get swept under the carpet.

long live the superior spider-man!

well Otto as SS certainly didn't indulge in such behavior so you may say that.

As a ride-or-die Spider-Man fan since childhood, I actually do have to agree with you guys. I could protest that Peter wasn't in his right mind at the time, either. I could offer the context that he was actually trying to kill his own clone, the man whose life he'd just saved earlier in that same issue and who had sacrificed his own freedom for Peter's sake several issues/arcs previously, and blindly lashed out at anyone interrupting his single-minded murderous vendetta. Alas, that wouldn't be enough, nothing would be enough, to mitigate that Peter struck his own pregnant wife in a blind rage and could have seriously injured if not outright killed her (and the baby), which in its own way is a bigger and more permanent black mark on him than One More Day ever could be.

As for the fan tribalism argument MichaelC presents, you can also blame Marvel for minimizing, if not flat-out erasing, what Peter did in that issue, largely because Spider-Man is Marvel's flagship hero and Marvel understandably wants people to like him enough to buy his comics and watch his movies/TV shows and play his videogames. On the other hand, a lot of people at Marvel feel nothing but apathy at best and contempt at worst for Hank Pym, not only because of what he did to Janet, but more so because they think, "His powers are stupid, he's a second-rate genius compared to Reed Richards, and he doesn't even have a cool gimmick like Tony Stark and his armors." So it's easier for them to highlight his many wrongdoings and failures and make him out to be at best a pathetic loser and at worst a supervillain in denial (or not so much in denial, given the Ultron merger), but they wouldn't dare emphasize Peter Parker's less likeable traits or qualities, because that would make him less marketable to the fans, and Marvel --- contrary to what some might believe --- is not in the business of deliberately losing money or market value.

your post precisely covers the issue in detail and it's a pity that Hank will always be regarded as a ogre in the MU whereas Peters far more serious lapse will be allowed to be forgotten just because no one else that witnessed the moment in person is alive apart from Ben who may have forgotten about it due to his trauma.

[Huntsman Spider]

yes more than omd it's one thing that he shouldn't ever forget doing whenever he sees mj.

you have put your finger on the nub of the issue. every character is judged according to different parameters depending upon how well loved or regarded he is as a character. thus spider man's toxic storylines always tend to get swept under the carpet.

well Otto as SS certainly didn't indulge in such behavior so you may say that.

your post precisely covers the issue in detail and it's a pity that Hank will always be regarded as a ogre in the MU whereas Peters far more serious lapse will be allowed to be forgotten just because no one else that witnessed the moment in person is alive apart from Ben who may have forgotten about it due to his trauma.

Thanks, although Ben probably wouldn't be able to bring up Peter nearly killing Mary Jane while trying to kill him without Peter bringing up that time Ben tried to end the world . . . then again, Peter was an accomplice to Miles Warren's attempts at the same because he was in a nihilistic funk over thinking that he was the clone all along. However, since that was in Maximum Clonage, widely considered to be at least one of the worst parts of an already dreadfully overblown, sprawling mess of a storyline, people would rather forget about it and chalk it up to bad writing meant to discredit Peter so that fans/readers would buy Ben as the "real" Spider-Man.

[maklelin highbain]

Hank is one of my favorite characters because he is so flawed. But he is given shocking treatment by both writers and other heroes. During a breakdown he hit janet once and has been made to recall it constantly ever since. As soon as the blow was struck he knew he had screwed up. He was made to pay and pay and there was never any real support from the rest of the super hero community. I have seen more helped dished out to characters like Sabretooth (xavier taking him in and helping him) for example. But if they ever needed help with something in Hank's field of expertise then they wouldn't hesitate to call on him. I don't even recall anyone asking for Dr Samson to speak to him and help him out (like xfactor under peter david did for the team). He is treated like a tool by pretty much everyone. As a founding member of the Avengers surely he deserved some measure of respect for all the good (and there is a lot of it) that he has done in years since but all is ever recounted are his failures. Would have been nice for someone at some point to give him a break.

[Michael Watkins]

Hank is one of my favorite characters because he is so flawed. But he is given shocking treatment by both writers and other heroes. During a breakdown he hit janet once and has been made to recall it constantly ever since.

it is brought up way less than him creating Ultron. and why does this bother you? you supposedly like his flaws.

As soon as the blow was struck he knew he had screwed up.

that's entirely untrue. after he struck the blow, he went on to attack his friends with an "indestructible" robot. they could have been killed. and, even then, what got to him was that Jan saved everyone. go reread it. i'll wait.

He was made to pay and pay

he only paid once. Jan divorced him. and it most likely didn't cost him anything. Jan's loaded.

and there was never any real support from the rest of the super hero community.

Clint Barton gave him a pretty important place on his West Coast Avengers roster. and none of his teammates brought up the spousal abuse during that time. Firebird even saved him from taking the coward's way out.

I have seen more helped dished out to characters like Sabretooth (xavier taking him in and helping him) for example.

I've probably read every Sabretooth story up until he started looking more like Tyler Mane. after Logan gave him a lobotomy, several of the X-Men made attempts on Creed's life while he was manacled. and Pym's not a mutant. i'm not sure why we're bringing up the X-Men. they routinely give second and third chances to characters who don't deserve them.

But if they ever needed help with something in Hank's field of expertise then they wouldn't hesitate to call on him.

that's probably how his ego became so inflated. if he didn't have the science, no one would care about him.

I don't even recall anyone asking for Dr Samson to speak to him and help him out (like xfactor under peter david did for the team).

that's because of that inflated ego I mentioned. Pym thinks that he's smarter than the whole of the psychiatric community. the skrull who impersonated him did seek out help from Samson. it was taking mood stabilizing medication like a responsible person.

He is treated like a tool by pretty much everyone.

he is a tool!

As a founding member of the Avengers surely he deserved some measure of respect for all the good (and there is a lot of it) that he has done in years since but all is ever recounted are his failures. Would have been nice for someone at some point to give him a break.

they should have revoked his founder status. dude's over 6 feet tall and he backhands a woman known for being petite. there are supervillains who are better humans than Hank Pym.

[jackolover]

I'm telling you it wasn't Tony. The story you are talking about happened in Slott's Avengers. That's were Reed and Pym got into about the invention.

I thought someone else ran down Pym though?

[jackolover]

Hank is one of my favorite characters because he is so flawed. But he is given shocking treatment by both writers and other heroes. During a breakdown he hit janet once and has been made to recall it constantly ever since. As soon as the blow was struck he knew he had screwed up. He was made to pay and pay and there was never any real support from the rest of the super hero community. I have seen more helped dished out to characters like Sabretooth (xavier taking him in and helping him) for example. But if they ever needed help with something in Hank's field of expertise then they wouldn't hesitate to call on him. I don't even recall anyone asking for Dr Samson to speak to him and help him out (like xfactor under peter david did for the team). He is treated like a tool by pretty much everyone. As a founding member of the Avengers surely he deserved some measure of respect for all the good (and there is a lot of it) that he has done in years since but all is ever recounted are his failures. Would have been nice for someone at some point to give him a break.

Hank was one of my favourites too, as he was a leading detective at the time he was antman and a great tactician in the Avengers.

But Marvel soon found it was easier to have Stark quintets if Pym wasn’t around, because Pym was a great inventor. Remove Pym, and you see the Avengers evolution along the Stark progression.

Marvels excuse was that they couldn’t find a worthy role for Hank Pym having to change his disguise from Antman, to Giantman, to Goliath, to the Hornet, and it self-destructed. Myself, I think they could have stuck with Antman / Giantman, and continued his character just fine. But I think Marvel needed to shove Pym aside so Starks quintets could become the premier tech in the group. You can’t have two tech masters.

[Tony Stark]

I thought someone else ran down Pym though?

It was Reed my friend. After they got into the disagreement. Pym and his Avengers broke into the FF building to get the invention.

Hank was one of my favourites too, as he was a leading detective at the time he was antman and a great tactician in the Avengers.

But Marvel soon found it was easier to have Stark quintets if Pym wasn’t around, because Pym was a great inventor. Remove Pym, and you see the Avengers evolution along the Stark progression.

Marvels excuse was that they couldn’t find a worthy role for Hank Pym having to change his disguise from Antman, to Giantman, to Goliath, to the Hornet, and it self-destructed. Myself, I think they could have stuck with Antman / Giantman, and continued his character just fine. But I think Marvel needed to shove Pym aside so Starks quintets could become the premier tech in the group. You can’t have two tech masters.

I don't agree with this. Stark was created as the industrialist inventor. He was based on the great Howard Hughes. He was the Avengers first leader and backer. They didn't toss Pym to the side to build up Tony.

[Alan2099]

A huge part of Pym's problem comes from the fact that the character type he was created as just plain doesn't exist anymore. You don't see the two-fisted action scientist these days. Back in the day he was created, having the hero be a scientists that went on adventures was common. Now... just nobody rights that sort of thing so they don't know what to do with it.

[MichaelC]

It was Reed my friend. After they got into the disagreement. Pym and his Avengers broke into the FF building to get the invention.



I don't agree with this. Stark was created as the industrialist inventor. He was based on the great Howard Hughes. He was the Avengers first leader and backer. They didn't toss Pym to the side to build up Tony.

If anything, it was Stark who was shoved to the side to pump up Pym for a very long time. I get the impression that the Avengers writers prefered to work with characters they fully controlled. Consequently the Big Three...weren't that big most of the time. The Avengers was the soap-opera story of the Pyms, Magneto's children, Vision who was simultaneously Ultron's child, Wonderman's quasi-brother, and Wanda's boyfriend, and just all the soap-opera quasi-incestuous relationships between them. One of the few times that Stark wasn't just a background bit of furniture was when he was used as a villain in the Wasp/Hank soap-opera.