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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I wonder. If we wanted to make her a larger threat why not have her look a bit deeper into the mythical side. For example she finds a dangerous plant or something else. It’s something that can she can use against Diana. Since she is a drug company. Couldn’t she use something that can help more people but if she needs to it can also kill or slower tortures people close to Diana
    Its not only threat level thats an issue. Though goodness knows trying to come up with something that wont make her come off as a weaker knockoff of bigger Wondy villains like Doctor Poison is no small task.
    Motivation is also a big deal. Her original motive boiled down to 'Damnit. Im sick of everyone talking about Wonder Woman because shes trending! Im going to be evil now and try to destroy her life so people stop talking about her!' No desire to be in the spotlight herself. No envy for Wonder Woman or her powers. Just simply a hatred of hearing people talking about her all the time. By that logic she would probably react the same way if Oprah started trending or Shia Labouf.

    The rebirth origin gave her a better motivation with the whole lost daughter thing, resolving with Hippolyta declaring that she would take care of Cales daughter who could not return to the mortal realm. But with a resolution like that, how do you motivate her to do anything? Heck, theres nothing really to establish her as even disliking Wonder Woman anymore.

    That said, what happened with Ares most recently raises some interesting questions of what happened to Cales daughter, but thats all we have really

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I actually liked the original Veronica Cale in Rucka's first run a bit better. Hatred is often rooted in fear, and the first Cale run had a successful and talented Cale, who had succeeded in a despite everything that the system could throw against her. But she took that as evidence that the system worked, and became a firm defender of it, and viewed Diana's rejection of that same system as an attack against her.

    To me, the Cale that Rucka originally constructed felt like an expy for women like Margaret Thatcher or Ann Coulter. The Cale in his second run didn't feel as interesting.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Maybe a mix of the two? I mean there have been situations where people have gotten sympathy due to having children. I'm not saying anything bad just like the lowest of the lowest jobs. So would it be interesting to have a questionable relationship of mother and daughter with Cale instead?
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I actually liked the original Veronica Cale in Rucka's first run a bit better. Hatred is often rooted in fear, and the first Cale run had a successful and talented Cale, who had succeeded in a despite everything that the system could throw against her. But she took that as evidence that the system worked, and became a firm defender of it, and viewed Diana's rejection of that same system as an attack against her.

    To me, the Cale that Rucka originally constructed felt like an expy for women like Margaret Thatcher or Ann Coulter. The Cale in his second run didn't feel as interesting.
    I agree kjn. You summed up my experience of Cale’s first outing eloquently. I’d like to see her threat grow within the parameters you describe. There’s still plenty there to explore.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    The rebirth origin gave her a better motivation with the whole lost daughter thing, resolving with Hippolyta declaring that she would take care of Cales daughter who could not return to the mortal realm. But with a resolution like that, how do you motivate her to do anything? Heck, theres nothing really to establish her as even disliking Wonder Woman anymore.

    That said, what happened with Ares most recently raises some interesting questions of what happened to Cales daughter, but thats all we have really
    There really isn't a rational reason for Veronica to hate Wonder Woman anymore...but considering what she has been put through and the fact that she really has nothing left, it's not unexpected that she will irrationally lash out at Wonder Woman for bringing down all this crap on her. Veronica even in Rebirth is very prideful: her love and fear for her daughter is 100% genuine, but mixed in with that an anger that her love has been exploited as a "weakness" and she hates not being in control. She never ONCE approaches Wonder Woman to ask for help when it made sense to do so. She wanted to reclaim her power for herself, even if it meant doing things like throwing Barbara Minerva under the bus and doing increasingly dangerous and morally awful actions like attempting to free Ares, kidnapping Sasha and having Etta's staff murdered.

    And after all that, she doesn't ever get to see her daughter again. Phobos and Deimos are outside of her reach to punish and they did this to her in a scheme related to Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman unwittingly brought her Gods down on Cale and Anderson. It's irrational, but Veronica has no one else to take her anger out on besides Wonder Woman. Her pre-Flashpoint reasons for disliking Wonder Woman may even still be in place, which only make her anger worse.

    As for the comparisons to the Baroness, they are pretty obvious. But while I think reforming Paula and making her an ally to Diana was one of Marston's best ideas, bringing Gerta in out of nowhere was always kind of a lame rush job to get us to sympathize with Paula. In the stories prior to that, Paula seemed 100% on board with this whole Nazi thing, I think it takes more than distress at your child being kidnapped to start believing in that ideology. Veronica's plight with her daughter is much better written, and she's not magically reformed when the dust settles.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I actually liked the original Veronica Cale in Rucka's first run a bit better. Hatred is often rooted in fear, and the first Cale run had a successful and talented Cale, who had succeeded in a despite everything that the system could throw against her. But she took that as evidence that the system worked, and became a firm defender of it, and viewed Diana's rejection of that same system as an attack against her.

    To me, the Cale that Rucka originally constructed felt like an expy for women like Margaret Thatcher or Ann Coulter. The Cale in his second run didn't feel as interesting.
    I think I'm the opposite. The original Veronica seemed like a mix of early post-Crisis Lex and Priscilla Rich. The problem for me is, I don't care for most post-Crisis Lex stories at all, and she lacks the obvious supervillain aspects Priscilla has as the Cheetah to make her more visually interesting. Veronica is the best modern update Priscilla Rich has ever seen, except it's not actually Priscilla and the progression to the Cheetah was obviously off the table.

    I think her new motivation makes her stand apart from other villains in the DCU, and the envy motivation was transferred back to the Cheetah (this time Barbara Ann) where it belongs, IMO.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I agree kjn. You summed up my experience of Cale’s first outing eloquently. I’d like to see her threat grow within the parameters you describe. There’s still plenty there to explore.
    It also helps to thematically differentiate Veronica Cale from Lex Luthor as a villain. Luthor is angry at Superman because Luthor is driven to prove himself the best, and thus better than Superman. Cale is threatened by Wonder Woman because Wonder Woman challenges the ideals that Cale has internalised and the society that Cale succeeded in.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    It also helps to thematically differentiate Veronica Cale from Lex Luthor as a villain. Luthor is angry at Superman because Luthor is driven to prove himself the best, and thus better than Superman. Cale is threatened by Wonder Woman because Wonder Woman challenges the ideals that Cale has internalised and the society that Cale succeeded in.
    Exactly. That's how I've seen them as different from one another, especially factoring in the sexism Cale experiences/ed and watching the same thing happen to her mother.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Interesting POV SP02. I've never felt a connection between Cale and Priscilla Rich as characters, in Rebirth she was very much much a straightforward absorption of von Gunther's tale to me, without the reformation resolution.

  9. #24
    Fantastic Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    I can sorta see that Prsicilla Rich connection to the post crisis take. Priscilla was turned to evil by public spurning her in favor of Wonder Woman. Cale became evil simply because Wonder Woman was trending. Both motivated by Wonder Woman being in the public eye, but with Veronicas being more impersonal

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Interesting POV SP02. I've never felt a connection between Cale and Priscilla Rich as characters, in Rebirth she was very much much a straightforward absorption of von Gunther's tale to me, without the reformation resolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    I can sorta see that Prsicilla Rich connection to the post crisis take. Priscilla was turned to evil by public spurning her in favor of Wonder Woman. Cale became evil simply because Wonder Woman was trending. Both motivated by Wonder Woman being in the public eye, but with Veronicas being more impersonal
    I think it's a consequence of Wonder Woman's full history not being intact. Veronica being motivated by jealousy is perhaps unique to her in the post-Crisis canon when Barbara Minerva is the Cheetah, but looking at the wider history of Wonder Woman's lore, it's hard for me to look at this famous blonde woman who is envious of Wonder Woman taking over the public's interest and NOT think "why can't we have a modernized Priscilla again? We have a character who can cover this already in dire need of an update, and is more interesting."

    I think making Rebirth Minerva more of a composite between her and Priscilla (the blonde hair, the envy, and there is a bit of a split between her two personas) and giving Veronica a separate motivation has benefited both characters. The downside is that Veronica has a bit of Paula's character/motivation in place now, but Paula is harder to modernize than the Cheetah. And if she ever is, I think she has enough going for her that she'd still be distinct from Veronica. There's no real need to bring Gerta back. She was always kind of a little pain in the ass anyway. Reforming an indoctrinated Nazi (or whatever twisted ideology we could give a modern Paula) is interesting enough.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it's a consequence of Wonder Woman's full history not being intact. Veronica being motivated by jealousy is perhaps unique to her in the post-Crisis canon when Barbara Minerva is the Cheetah, but looking at the wider history of Wonder Woman's lore, it's hard for me to look at this famous blonde woman who is envious of Wonder Woman taking over the public's interest and NOT think "why can't we have a modernized Priscilla again? We have a character who can cover this already in dire need of an update, and is more interesting."

    I think making Rebirth Minerva more of a composite between her and Priscilla (the blonde hair, the envy, and there is a bit of a split between her two personas) and giving Veronica a separate motivation has benefited both characters. The downside is that Veronica has a bit of Paula's character/motivation in place now, but Paula is harder to modernize than the Cheetah. And if she ever is, I think she has enough going for her that she'd still be distinct from Veronica. There's no real need to bring Gerta back. She was always kind of a little pain in the ass anyway. Reforming an indoctrinated Nazi (or whatever twisted ideology we could give a modern Paula) is interesting enough.
    I mean, what exactly is interesting about Priscilla Rich? She's an outdated stereotype of mental illness, particularly as it pertains to women and even Rucka's original version of Cale had something to say about the way society sets women against each other. If Rich were brought back, I doubt she wouldn't be laughed out of existence with some criticism of ableism and misogyny flung DC's way.

    As for Paula, good luck writing a story about Wonder Woman trying to reform a Nazi in this day and age. You're more likely to have people calling for Diana to just kill her or asking why Diana seems to care more about the Nazi than her victims. There's a reason why they introduced the retcon that Paula only worked for the Nazis because they held her daughter hostage.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-19-2018 at 05:39 PM.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I mean, what exactly is interesting about Priscilla Rich? She's an outdated stereotype of mental illness, particularly as it pertains to women and even Rucka's original version of Cale had something to say about the way society sets women against each other. If Rich were brought back, I doubt she wouldn't be laughed out of existence with some criticism of ableism and misogyny flung DC's way.
    She's no more outdated than any of the Bat-Villains that have some genuine mental issues (as few and far between as they are). Sadly enough, if they work she'd probably be fine. Even for the 1940s, Diana's reaction towards Priscilla's obsession towards her is more progressive in some ways than what we get now. She didn't view Priscilla as an evil creature to be condemned, but a sick woman who needs help. That's why I said to "modernize" Priscilla. I'm not asking for the Golden Age stories and their tropes to be used exactly as is, update how Priscilla would act and how other characters would react towards her and put more thought into the treatments.

    As for Veronica saying something about the way society treats women...well, so did Priscilla. Even today, but especially back then, society put pressure on women to succeed based on physical beauty, wealth and the ability to attract men. Priscilla succeeds in that system, Wonder Woman breezes in and bucks the system, and Priscilla cracks under the pressure and latches on to Diana with obsessive envy. Society pits the women against each other when a "threat" emerges. But even back then, did Diana ever once engage Priscilla on that level? I don't think so, she tried to help her. Modern day Diana would be even less likely to resort to "cat fights" and try to rehabilitate her, with more progressive methods considering the times. As for Prisilla's vanity and envy being a motivation being detrimental to women...isn't that kinda the point? We're not supposed to view anything the Cheetah does as something that should be endorsed. As outdated as they inevitably would be, Marston's Cheetah stories were a critique on pitting women against women. A couple were even written by a woman.

    If DC is unconcerned about abelism accusations with the Bat-villains, anything flung at Priscilla won't bother them. She hits on many classic archetypes like Jeckyl/Hyde and the Evil Queen from Snow White. A certain crowd is going to write it off as abelist or sexist even before they read it, regardless of how it would be executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    As for Paula, good luck writing a story about Wonder Woman trying to reform a Nazi in this day and age. You're more likely to have people calling for Diana to just kill her or asking why Diana seems to care more about the Nazi than her victims. There's a reason why they introduced the retcon that Paula only worked for the Nazis because they held her daughter hostage.
    I wasn't aware that Diana didn't believe in redemption when it is possible to achieve it. I don't want to support a superhero who would sooner kill an enemy than rehabilitate them if possible. No matter how reprehensible their ideology, and if Paula is just a non-powered individual, she is not a threat enough to warrant actual demi-god Diana killing her.

    Why would any story involving redemption for Paula endorse the Nazi (or whatever) doctrine when she's turning away from it? Why would a story automatically ignore her victims? Doesn't magically pulling Gerta out of the air absolve her evil actions (which she didn't seem reluctant about in previous appearances) too quickly, and ignore her victims?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She's no more outdated than any of the Bat-Villains that have some genuine mental issues (as few and far between as they are). Sadly enough, if they work she'd probably be fine. Even for the 1940s, Diana's reaction towards Priscilla's obsession towards her is more progressive in some ways than what we get now. She didn't view Priscilla as an evil creature to be condemned, but a sick woman who needs help. That's why I said to "modernize" Priscilla. I'm not asking for the Golden Age stories and their tropes to be used exactly as is, update how Priscilla would act and how other characters would react towards her and put more thought into the treatments.

    If DC is unconcerned about abelism accusations with the Bat-villains, anything flung at Priscilla won't bother them. She hits on many classic archetypes like Jeckyl/Hyde and the Evil Queen from Snow White. A certain crowd is going to write it off as abelist or sexist even before they read it, regardless of how it would be executed.
    I’m not wild about the Bat franchise’s take on mental illness either.
    You have a fair point about Priscilla in theory but if Heroes in Crisis is any indication, mental illness is not a topic DC is equipped to deal with.


    I wasn't aware that Diana didn't believe in redemption when it is possible to achieve it. I don't want to support a superhero who would sooner kill an enemy than rehabilitate them if possible. No matter how reprehensible their ideology, and if Paula is just a non-powered individual, she is not a threat enough to warrant actual demi-god Diana killing her.
    Key word here being “possible”. You also have to convince the audience that such a character is even worth truing to redeem which is difficult to impossible given todays political climate.

    Why would any story involving redemption for Paula endorse the Nazi (or whatever) doctrine when she's turning away from it? Why would a story automatically ignore her victims? Doesn't magically pulling Gerta out of the air absolve her evil actions (which she didn't seem reluctant about in previous appearances) too quickly, and ignore her victims?
    That tends to be how redemption arcs are done by the Big 2 these days.
    If Paula is serving the Nazis because they’re holding her daughter hostage, she’s a victim of them as well.

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