Will Richard Rider Be Wiped Over And Forgotten, Like Mar-Vell?

[Killerbee911]

This is your opinion and no where near the truth.

- I mean you can say that. But hilarious tons of comics fan couldn't tell you what Nova origin is or couldn't pick out their favorite Nova story not named the ones I keep mentioning. Yeah it is "circular argument" but you realize aren't really arguing against my points and a lot of your "points" are opinions no where near the truth either

- Cloud Atlas and Wrinkle in Time are amazing stories a lot better tons other books. Being a better story does not mean translatable for a movie. Annihilation is big sweeping crossover event with many moving parts and many characters who are key to story that can't show up. Better story that can't be told and if they told it might as well be new story. In that case telling it for other character won't be a big deal.

-Nova being the "better character" doesn't matter for a large amount of his history he was just average character, I mean I keep mentioning when the light switch went for him to be the better character. If it is early years Rich and Early Sam then Sam is actually the better character but we aren't just judging one period, and Rich has great growth as character and Nova concept has gotten build up over the years leaving overall better character. In movie world,None continuity matters and the Rich only advantage is a big sweeping story that can't be used.

- Lastly I don't care who gets If it Rich fine,If it is Sam fine,It is both even better. My point remains that Sam is better for a movie franchise, In the same way Jamie reyes is better in my opinion for movie franchise than Ted Cord for much of the same reasons. I rather Nova is successful as IP overall because it has become a good concept. IMO it is less of landmine to use Sam as base if they are going singular focus and combine the best parts. You want to ride Team Rich hard go ahead I am not being hurt.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The only issue with the space buddy cop concept is that DC's reboot of Green Lantern is also said to be a space buddy cop film with veteran Hal taking rookie John under his wing.

This assumes that DC will ever get off their butt and actually make it

Besides, Civil War and Batman vs. Superman came out about the same time. Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman are both set in the past. I think given Marvel's record, they would get the benfit of the doubt.

And hell, you might not even need space, depending on the plot.

"Supercharged Nova Corpsman Richard Rider, perusing a ship of escaped supercriminals, crashes on earth. Unable to call for reinforcements, he instead tries to reach his old partner, only to find that he's MIA and that his son is in possession of his helmet and powers. Now Rider much teach the kids the ropes, and the high cost of being a Nova, while Sam struggles to reconcile the image of his deadbeat dad with the hero Rich knew him as."

[DragonsChi]

- I mean you can say that. But hilarious tons of comics fan couldn't tell you what Nova origin is or couldn't pick out their favorite Nova story not named the ones I keep mentioning. Yeah it is "circular argument" but you realize aren't really arguing against my points and a lot of your "points" are opinions no where near the truth either

Most comic fan's can't name a story that is their favorite. Not all. I have a few now that I have read them. But that is the same with both characters.

I'm also not going back forth with you on your points because you really don't have one. I keep telling you everything you are saying can be applied to either character. But you just keep saying "No, only for Sam."

- Cloud Atlas and Wrinkle in Time are amazing stories a lot better tons other books. Being a better story does not mean translatable for a movie. Annihilation is big sweeping crossover event with many moving parts and many characters who are key to story that can't show up. Better story that can't be told and if they told it might as well be new story. In that case telling it for other character won't be a big deal.

Nor would it be a big deal if they actually used the character who was in them and the majority of people like. Which is RICH.

Do you see a pattern here ?

-Nova being the "better character" doesn't matter for a large amount of his history he was just average character, I mean I keep mentioning when the light switch went for him to be the better character. If it is early years Rich and Early Sam then Sam is actually the better character but we aren't just judging one period, and Rich has great growth as character and Nova concept has gotten build up over the years leaving overall better character. In movie world,None continuity matters and the Rich only advantage is a big sweeping story that can't be used.

What kind of logic is the bold. If people followed this in all things we would all still be riding on horses to and from the grocery store.

I already laid out that Sam's early years is not better. You have yet to even prove that you know anything about Rich's early years. Hell the majority of people don't even care either way for Sam. The character is surrounded with apathy which is by far worse than being hated. Even now, when he doesn't have his powers, there is barely anyone who is concerned either way. But even you in this very post admit that Rich advantage is that he has the story people care about. Which means he has the characterization people care about. Which mean he is over all the best choice.

But again it can go either way. But it's clear as to who it should be.

- Lastly I don't care who gets If it Rich fine,If it is Sam fine,It is both even better.

Then why do you keep pushing this conversation forward. I effectively ended this conversation with you on Page 7 of this thread. Where I laid out that it could go either way. Yet your still arguing for Sam as if it's a sure thing.

My point remains that Sam is better for a movie franchise, In the same way Jamie reyes is better in my opinion for movie franchise than Ted Cord for much of the same reasons. I rather Nova is successful as IP overall because it has become a good concept. IMO it is less of landmine to use Sam as base if they are going singular focus and combine the best parts. You want to ride Team Rich hard go ahead I am not being hurt.

That again is your opinion. However, a character who you say, doesn't have the better story or history. Isn't popular by any means. And has to be propped up by a predecessor stories for him to succeed doesn't ring for being better for a movie franchise to me. Just saying.

At this point I'm not even arguing for Rich. I'm arguing for how wacky this world has become where people tell you "Well yeah, this thing over here is bad and we have something better but lets use the bad thing instead. " and then expect the person they are telling this to, to just go along with it. No thank you. I will take the good stuff.

[Killerbee911]

This assumes that DC will ever get off their butt and actually make it

Besides, Civil War and Batman vs. Superman came out about the same time. Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman are both set in the past. I think given Marvel's record, they would get the benfit of the doubt.

And hell, you might not even need space, depending on the plot.

"Supercharged Nova Corpsman Richard Rider, perusing a ship of escaped supercriminals, crashes on earth. Unable to call for reinforcements, he instead tries to reach his old partner, only to find that he's MIA and that his son is in possession of his helmet and powers. Now Rider much teach the kids the ropes, and the high cost of being a Nova, while Sam struggles to reconcile the image of his deadbeat dad with the hero Rich knew him as."

That could work, That's pretty good

They could probably start with most Nova corps are wiped out after Thanos attack and the Nova Corps are looking for available members to stop another impending threat. So they send out a sos to all members. Sam finds the helmet and ends up going where he meets Rich and he trains him up for the fight against the threat.

You have yet to even prove that you know anything about Rich's early years.

When I asked for ONE good arc pre annihilation you couldn't name one in fact and You went into you don't anything about the early history silliness.

Then why do you keep pushing this conversation forward. I effectively ended this conversation with you on Page 7 of this thread. Where I laid out that it could go either way. Yet your still arguing for Sam as if it's a sure thing.

Because I don't agree what is being said on the internet when someone says something I don't agree with respond. You keep saying a bunch things like they are facts when they aren't. And the biggest myth Sam is some awful character and Rich is this way better character. I view it differently

[DragonsChi]

When I asked for ONE good arc pre annihilation you couldn't name one in fact and You went into you don't anything about the early history silliness.

I didn't go into it for 3 reasons
1) There is no need to because Sam doesn't have any arc at all that the majority enjoy. Even his origin wasn't that great.
2) Anything I say you will just come back with something else. To Which usually amounts to A) Sam should get it because he is latino, B) Sam's origin is better in your eye's when pretty much everyone agree's that the story wasn't all that good. C) Something or another about Rich being a knock off another character. Which, by your logic, makes Sam a bigger knock off since he is just a smaller version of Rich who held the Nova concept before him.
3) I'm not doing research for you. You want to learn about a character and why people feel the way they do about them, then do what I did. Read both, decide from there. Don't refute or stand up for something when you don't have all the information. It is a loosing battle at the jump.

Because I don't agree what is being said on the internet when someone says something I don't agree with respond. You keep saying a bunch things like they are facts when they aren't. And the biggest myth Sam is some awful character and Rich is this way better character. I view it differently

That's fine. But you led us here. I said there it could go either way. YOU continued to say that Sam was the better choice for X,Y,& Z and I kept saying it could go either way. Then you admitted that Rich had the better stories and from there I continued to show you why I think your logic for picking a character you admit is weaker in terms of story is backwards.

So why don't we agree to disagree and move on. Not sure now if even you believe what you are typing and this thread has devolved to a point of redundancy.

[your_name_here]

I would imagine there’s more appeal in the Richard Rider stories, specifically the DnA run, seeing as they’re pushing to be more cosmic in Phase 4 onwards. I absolutely hated him being replaced by Sam for no reason (Nova became a HUGE deal in cosmic marvel).
Annihilation is almost essentially a Nova comic. The only person I can imagine taking his spot as lone-space soldier would be Captain Marvel

[Michael Watkins]

I would imagine there’s more appeal in the Richard Rider stories, specifically the DnA run, seeing as they’re pushing to be more cosmic in Phase 4 onwards. I absolutely hated him being replaced by Sam for no reason (Nova became a HUGE deal in cosmic marvel).
Annihilation is almost essentially a Nova comic. The only person I can imagine taking his spot as lone-space soldier would be Captain Marvel

how about Quasar or Darkhawk?

[your_name_here]

They don’t have films yet and I can’t see them getting one before Nova would. I went with Captain Marvel as she might end up being one the mains in the MCU once Phase 4 comes in.

[Holt]

No, not really.

Yes, yes really. They made him Giant-Man (as far as we know the ONLY Giant-Man in this continuity since Hank never used the identity) and gave him a partner called the Wasp. And that's not even getting into the fact that the sequel had him face off against Ghost, an Iron Man villain. And now he's looking like he's going to become an Avenger, a role that Hank has never had in the films despite being the founding Ant-Man of the comic Avengers.

If a character doesn't have all of the stories or character elements supposedly "required" to make a movie, there's no reason they can't be pulled from various sources. So if the argument you want to keep using is that Richard has more going on that Sam doesn't, that doesn't really hold up, since the (supposedly) necessary elements of Rider could be used without him.

Once again: Kyle Rayner (since you seem fond of that example) in the DCAU.

[DragonsChi]

Yes, yes really. They made him Giant-Man (as far as we know the ONLY Giant-Man in this continuity since Hank never used the identity) and gave him a partner called the Wasp. And that's not even getting into the fact that the sequel had him face off against Ghost, an Iron Man villain. And now he's looking like he's going to become an Avenger, a role that Hank has never had in the films despite being the founding Ant-Man of the comic Avengers.

If a character doesn't have all of the stories or character elements supposedly "required" to make a movie, there's no reason they can't be pulled from various sources. So if the argument you want to keep using is that Richard has more going on that Sam doesn't, that doesn't really hold up, since the (supposedly) necessary elements of Rider could be used without him.

Once again: Kyle Rayner (since you seem fond of that example) in the DCAU.

I covered most of what you said in that post. So refer back for the Growth powers.

Ghost was never a Hank villain either so still not transferring Hank on to him.

Lang was an Avenger too so still no.

And you saying it Rich's possible change has more going on is also a lie. Rich being latino or hispanic in the film would be the same as it would be if Sam were. Because the necessary elements for Sam to work would require using Rich storyline which is even more work then having Rich show up as a diverse person. So still no.

Your Kyle Rayner example, in how you used it here, is probably the weakest of your points since when I used it was referring to how the comic revealed he was half hispanic. During the time he was used in the DCAU that revelation hadn't even revelation even come about. Essh, did you not know that or are you intentionally not telling the whole truth now?

[Holt]

I covered most of what you said in that post.

I'm aware. You just dismissed as "Yeah but those count because..." which doesn't address the point.

Ghost was never a Hank villain either so still not transferring Hank on to him.

LMAO that's why I said he was an Iron Man villain.

Lang was an Avenger too so still no.

As a legacy, not the sole Ant-Man.

Your Kyle Rayner example, in how you used it here, is probably the weakest of your points since when I used it was referring to how the comic revealed he was half hispanic. During the time he was used in the DCAU that revelation hadn't even revelation even come about.

Which is utterly irrelevant to my point. Kyle Rayner was a legacy character who had the backstory and certain character elements of his predecessor grafted onto him for an adaptation, much like Lang. So if your argument is that Rich must be used because he has stories and connections unique to him that are needed for a movie (debatable), then that doesn't really hold water since the necessary points can simply be transferred to Sam.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Honestly, I don't think Sam and Rich's relationship is anything like Mar-Vell and Carol's.

Mar-Vell's been dead for decades now. His most famous story is his death and his archtype of cosmic crusader had long since passed.

More than that, it shouldn't come as a surprise that Marv was removed from Carol's origin. What was the source of Carol's powers? The reason why Marvel's premier heroine got powers at all?

Just being rescued by a man.

One needn't be a doctor in gender studies to understand why that's problematic in this day and age.

Frankly, I'm shocked it took them this long to rework it

[DragonsChi]

I'm aware. You just dismissed as "Yeah but those count because..." which doesn't address the point.

Didn't dismiss. Getting a power upgrade isn't transplanting elements of Hank on to him. If that were the case the the Wasp has been taking Hank's stick from day one.

LMAO that's why I said he was an Iron Man villain.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you meant Hank. Why the heck else would you even bother bringing up Ghost other wise.

As a legacy, not the sole Ant-Man.

What the heck are you even trying to say here? Did you watch the movie Ant-Man? Hank was Ant-Man first in that movie as well. Are you trying to say that Hank is being transferred onto Scott because he is an Avenger and Hank wasn't? If so it's still weak and what I said Scott was an Avenger anyway.

Which is utterly irrelevant to my point. Kyle Rayner was a legacy character who had the backstory and certain character elements of his predecessor grafted onto him for an adaptation, much like Lang. So if your argument is that Rich must be used because he has stories and connections unique to him that are needed for a movie (debatable), then that doesn't really hold water since the necessary points can simply be transferred to Sam.

No my argument has always been that Rich should be in the movie because he is admittedly the better character who has better stories. Sam brings little to nothing to the table in comparison. Again it can go either way but just based on merit it should go to Rich. But we will see.

Honestly, I don't think Sam and Rich's relationship is anything like Mar-Vell and Carol's.

Mar-Vell's been dead for decades now. His most famous story is his death and his archtype of cosmic crusader had long since passed.

More than that, it shouldn't come as a surprise that Marv was removed from Carol's origin. What was the source of Carol's powers? The reason why Marvel's premier heroine got powers at all?

Just being rescued by a man.

One needn't be a doctor in gender studies to understand why that's problematic in this day and age.

Frankly, I'm shocked it took them this long to rework it

I really don't want get into all of that here but at the end of the day if Mar-Vell was never created Carol would have never been created. The character should have a place (not necessarily the lead) in the first film simply for that reason alone.

[Holt]

Didn't dismiss getting a power upgrade isn't transplanting elements of Hank on to him.

It is, just like him having a partner and love interest known as the Wasp also was.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you meant Hank. Why the heck else would you even bother bringing up Ghost other wise.

To illustrate the point that "But they didn't have this connection in the comics" doesn't matter in a movie adaptation.

What the heck are you even trying to say here? Did you watch the movie Ant-Man? Hank was Ant-Man first in that movie as well

Which has nothing to do with what I said.

No my argument has always been that Rich should be in the movie because he is admittedly the better character who has better stories.

And the point of using Kyle Rayner was an example was that it doesn't matter at all since they wouldn't be following the comics strictly anyway.

I really don't want get into all of that here but at the end of the day if Mar-Vell was never created Carol would have never been created. The character should have a place (not necessarily the lead) in the first film simply for that reason alone.

*cough* Kyle Rayner

[danielsan52]

Kid Nova should be the kid’s name along with the red costume.