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  1. #211
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I recall Perez saying that was the reason he left basically, he had no idea where things were going and editorial kept changing things and overruling him. I think he had asked if Lois & Clark had ever dated and couldn't get an answer. Then after he left one editor said he left because he was too old and couldn't keep up with a monthly book. I believe it was the same editor that said as long as he was working at DC Clark and Lois would never get together. I mean, I didn't think Perez was a good fit to relaunch a modern take on Superman, but you have to be a real jackass to badmouth George Perez to try to prop up your mess of a title.
    That would be Matt Idelson. He was largely to blame for the fuster cluck that was New Krypton and Grounded.He admitted in a Wizard interview around that time that he didn't really like Superman all that much...and yet he was editing the books! Of course when Idelson was let go from the books I cheered , until we got Berganza, who was arguably worse.
    .
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    That would be Matt Idelson. He was largely to blame for the fuster cluck that was New Krypton and Grounded.He admitted in a Wizard interview around that time that he didn't really like Superman all that much...and yet he was editing the books! Of course when Idelson was let go from the books I cheered , until we got Berganza, who was arguably worse.
    .
    And we're currently stuck with an editor that doesn't like the Super-Marriage.

  3. #213
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    And we're currently stuck with an editor that doesn't like the Super-Marriage.
    Yeah, but the editors have no say over Bendis's direction now. And I think he's actually said he likes how Bendis is handling it so if that sets a good template going forward i won't be too worried about it.

  4. #214
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    The title was launched fairly early into the initiative though, and outside of that overrated Charles Soule portion, most of the material existed to deconstruct the pairing under the illusion of "challenging the relationship", even Johns, who introduced it, was getting bored of it by the time he took over the Super books and was playing it down. The plan from the get-go was to have always ended it badly and spin the characters off into different things anyway, there was no real commitment to the premise.
    The title started a year after JL #12, so it wasn't jumped into immediately. And quality being subjective as it is, what one may thing of Soule/Tomasi's runs are besides the point. It was a title and concept very much acknowledged by the rest of the DCU, so its one point that helps dispel the incorrect notion that interest was lost fast. That's simply not true. That's what I was arguing in this particular instance.

    Johns was never that into it, no, and that was fine. But it was still acknowledged in JL and everywhere else, which was the main point in disputing the idea it was largely forgotten everywhere else. Johns didn't have it as driving plot lines in JL and he didn't have to, but it was still always there. And we don't know at all whether the plan was to end it badly, that argument was the result of a misremembered quote in an old Johns interview. The part remembered is that he said relationships can go bad. What's left out, what's incomplete is what he said afterward; that they can go bad then get good again. That was the full paraphrased quote. So he wasn't talking about ending things. He was talking about natural relationship issues, how you can have issues, fix said issues, rinse and repeat. Basically the reality of any romantic relationship. The fact is no one will ever know what was going to happen before the whole New 52 initiative was stopped unless someone in the know opens up about it, which to date has not happened. Had the New 52 continued unabated, maybe it would have ended badly. Maybe it would have ended good. Maybe it would have kept going. No one knows.

    So the argument wasn't about opinions of quality. It just about pointing out how it was truly perceived within the greater DCU at the time. Regardless what one might have thought of it, it most certainly was not a tiny status quo element relegated to one title and kept hush hush everywhere else. Not even slightly close. At the end of the day it was actually just one title that refused to acknowledge it, as ironic as it might be that said title happened to be Diana's only solo title.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-22-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  5. #215
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    That would be Matt Idelson. He was largely to blame for the fuster cluck that was New Krypton and Grounded.He admitted in a Wizard interview around that time that he didn't really like Superman all that much...and yet he was editing the books! Of course when Idelson was let go from the books I cheered , until we got Berganza, who was arguably worse.
    Between Morrison leaving and the Rebirth team coming on, I think the most we got was "Superman? Oh sure, the first two movies were great" from Johns. Lobdell was sort of a stall, Pak was really into his own ideas, JRJR as a big catch really wasn't that interested, and it seemed pretty downhill from there.

  6. #216
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    And we're currently stuck with an editor that doesn't like the Super-Marriage.
    He also said that his personal preferences donít affect the books. Whether thatís true or not you need to acknowledge that if youíre going to keep bringing that tweet up.

  7. #217
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    I think the main Problem New 52 Superman suffered with was having two books by two separate writers. You can't serve two masters yet that's what they keep forcing Superman to do. That's why Aquaman was such a success during Johns' run. He was the only Voice the character had plus he wrote him in Justice League so it was the same guy. The Number One Complaint People had with Nuperman was they didn't know what mattered and what didn't cause Morrison was playing fast and Loose with continuity and Perez was trying to make a natural continuation from pre-flashpoint but with Changes to the Status Quo like Lois and Clark no longer being married and so on. I would have loved it if they had gotten married and divorced over just not being as compatible anymore and Lois had moved on. Shit happens. The Merger with GBS was a Big Sticking point with Clark (driving a wedge between him a Lois) and reflected current Media. Lois being OK with (widening the wedge) and getting a Better Job at said conglomerate was also in keeping with modern media. Clark quitting and starting a Blog was also current at the time (funny how when Lois had a News Blog in that Future's End Story, No one complained). In my Mind Clark would have eventually joined a TYT type organization away from corporate media or started one himself with Cat Grant (The Daily Daily?). That fact they spun Cat Grant out of there into her own media empire is telling. Then they undid it all.
    Last edited by Lokimaru; 12-23-2018 at 01:48 PM.

  8. #218
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't think it was the two different writers, it was just lack of communication between them. I mean, they could have gone the Bendis route for a while, but they would have had to sacrifice Morrison because highly likely he wouldn't have done two monthlies. It was a treat they got him on just Action for the time that they did. And outside of that particular example, if one wants Superman to just have one writer on the reg, then really the only realistic way to do that is cancel his other title and have him just have one monthly. And I don't think many would be crazy about the idea of Superman having just one title. You don't see a writer do the Bendis thing that often, and even with him, that's not going to last that long, imo. As far as your Aquaman comparison, that's actually a double-edged sword in the sense that yeah it has one voice, and when that one voice is on its really good, but the reason it only has one title and thus only one voice is because it can only support one title. So there's two ways of looking at that scenario.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-23-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    It would’ve helped if they designated one book the “main” book and one the “side” book. Batman by Scott Snyder was the main book and Tec was the side book. But the fact that no one knew what was canon at the start of the New 52 (not helped by Johns and Morrison being in the middle of definitive runs and telling Dido to **** off so they could finish their runs) made everything even more convoluted. They should’ve waited until Johns and Morrison were done and then rebooted, but I guess DC was in dire straits at the time.

  10. #220
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    I think the main Problem New 52 Superman suffered with was having two books by two separate writers. You can't serve two masters yet that's what they keep forcing Superman to do. That's why Aquaman was such a success during Johns' run. He was the only Voice the character had plus he wrote him in Justice League so it was the same guy. The Number One Complaint People had with Nuperman was they didn't know what mattered and what didn't cause Morrison was playing fast and Loose with continuity and Perez was trying to make a natural continuation from pre-flashpoint but with Changes to the Status Quo like Lois and Clark no longer being married and so on. I would have loved it if they had gotten married and divorced over just not being as compatible anymore and Lois had moved on. Shit happens. The Merger with GBS was a Big Sticking point with Clark (driving a wedge between him a Lois) and reflected current Media. Lois being OK with (widening the wedge) and getting a Better Job at said conglomerate was also in keeping with modern media. Clark quitting and starting a Blog was also current at the time (funny how when Lois had a News Blog in that Future's End Story, No one complained). In my Mind Clark would have eventually joined a TYT type organization away from corporate media or started one himself with Cat Grant (The Daily Daily?). That fact they spun Cat Grant out of there into her own media empire is telling. Then they undid it all.
    I think a good fit as a collaborator on Superman at least for the first year was Solly Fisch (sp?) Who wrote the back up stories during Morrison's run and the Action Comics annual that had Kryptonite Man. They seemed on the same wavelength in terms of basically just bringing the character back to basics whilst freshening some other aspects up. I loved those back up tales and that annual. It was just classic Superman. The one where Clark goes back to his prom night to talk to Jonathan one last time still brings a tear to my eye. Morrison captured the sci-fi craziness perfectly. Fisch seemed to understand the beating heart at the core of the character. Action could have focused on...well, ACTION. Superman could have focused on the man himself. Let us the reader get to know this "new" Superman on a more personal level. We needed more of that at the start of a new incarnation of a character like Superman.

    As for Clark's blogger career, my only objection to it was that they barely did anything with it.Between all the crossovers and the like, Clark's career got buried and marginalized. They had him quit the Daily Planet,made a big deal about it, and then aside from the fact it was the ClarkCatopolis blog that broke the news of SuperWonder to the DCU,that aspect just disappeared. Although to be fair that didn't just start with the New 52,that trend of sidelining the Clark Kent side of things had been a trend since 2007 ish. It just became more noticeable with the reboot divorcing the character from his past continuity.


    That's one of the reasons Ive enjoyed Bendis' run so much. He's probably the first regular Superman writer in years to not forget the "Clark Kent,Reporter" side of the Superman equation. Yeah, the blue and red clad alien superhero is the most fun to write, but in my opinion, when you ignore Clark Kent, you are ignoring a huge chunk of what made Supes endure for so long.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 12-24-2018 at 03:26 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  11. #221
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Has Sholly Fisch written anything else Superman related beyond Morrison's run?

    I'd definitely like him as a more regular writer for the super titles.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Has Sholly Fisch written anything else Superman related beyond Morrison's run?

    I'd definitely like him as a more regular writer for the super titles.
    I was just wondering myself what happened to him. There were quite a few promising new talents that left DC due to the terrible editorial, Paul Cornell, Sholly Fisch, Andy Diggle, all guys who did some minor work with Supes that was great but then left. That’s not even getting into how female talent was basically barred from the Super titles because no one could trust Berngaza not to sexually harass them.

  13. #223
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Has Sholly Fisch written anything else Superman related beyond Morrison's run?

    I'd definitely like him as a more regular writer for the super titles.
    He wrote a one shot issue for the Future's End month where all DC Comics got holographic variant covers. It was a nice homage to the Sandman Superman story and probably the best story to come out of the awful Future's End nonsense. He's also written a couple Superman appearances in his ongoing Scooby Doo Team Up series.

    Also I'd love to see Fisch return as an ongoing Superman writer, his backups were phenomenally good. His storytelling is a fun love letter to Silver Age stories with modern heart and character dynamics mixed in.

  14. #224
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I remember the emphasis on Morrison hand picking him, and he did live up to expectations. But... he was clearly in the loop, from how close his work lined up to the main stories. Part of what we got had to benefit from that pretty strongly, so I'm sure that would have benefitted just about anyone. Fisch not having a big two background probably could have found other frustrations had he been picked and took the opportunity to write the second title.

  15. #225
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I remember the emphasis on Morrison hand picking him, and he did live up to expectations. But... he was clearly in the loop, from how close his work lined up to the main stories. Part of what we got had to benefit from that pretty strongly, so I'm sure that would have benefitted just about anyone. Fisch not having a big two background probably could have found other frustrations had he been picked and took the opportunity to write the second title.
    That's a good point. The way the Big 2 handle things must be very difficult for any creative talent who isn't used to it. I know I used to chaff under my employers, back when I did graphic art, and they weren't nearly as anal or protective of the work I was doing as WB/DC are of their IP's.

    But who knows? Perhaps being under Morrison's wing could have protected Fisch from some of that corporate "art by committee" mentality. Morrison's big enough to do whatever he wants, he might've been able to keep Idleson off Fisch's back. At least to a degree. Guess we'll never know, but if Fisch someday does get a chance on Superman, I'd be interested in seeing what he'd do.
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