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  1. #166
    RIP, Norm... Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    . Other than that pretty much every aspect of him fit some form of a pre-Crisis element, so rather being completely different he was just different to a couple generations who weren't around for the way he used to be to see the similarities.
    He grew up on a farm and thought of himself as Clark. The latter is a significant departure, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I also think a lot of these changes are retroactively justified by tying it into some aspect of Pre-Crisis when in fact they were done haphazardly to generate outrage and media attention. When New 52 was announced, the lack of the marriage was a main point in the mainstream news media. That was the hook they used to get the story out. Same with the Wonder Woman relationship. Now not only is Superman not married, but Lois Lane is out, Wonder Woman is in.
    Agreed. It wasn't your dad's Superman because five years later, he was still butting heads with authority. When was Superman a rebel and well known superhero simultaneously? Why would he be? Why have him brood about Lois dating someone else instead of being in love with superheroics or in a love triangle for two?

    Now Morrison I can believe was going for a Golden Age Pre-War take. But if you are going to try to convince me that Scott Lodbell was purposefully trying to call back to pre-Crisis, I really will need to see some receipts for that claim.
    On one hand following Morrison and mimicking the flavor is vintage Lobdell. But his "gonzo" approach was quite similar to what Bates and Maggin were doing after O'Neil.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The pre-Crisis parallels in the New52 are pretty plain to see if one cares to look, but let's not forget that the Super-line had been moving back in that direction for a good decade before the reboot hit. It started with the return of Silver Age Krypton, Krypto, and Kara Zor-El under Loeb in the very late 90's or early 00's (I forget when exactly), then spread to include Clark's time with the Legion, his powers manifesting at a young age, the death of a Kent (which seemed like trying to split the difference), and so forth under Johns. We saw post-Crisis Clark's power levels slowly rise across the 00's until he was, perhaps not at crazy Silver Age levels, but far beyond where he had started in 86.
    I think it really startwd with Schultz directly having Superman come to see himself as Kal El just before Loeb started, but that's nitpicking if only to slight Berganza and his leadership. Same with Clark and the reboot Legion. The power creep, well, his powers always manifested at a young age and expanded after his death but DC clearly wanted the New Superman to hit the ground running so while he wasn't all powerful from the jump, he was nearer to pre crisis much sooner.

    The rebel thing I can give Johns for... although his fellow pre crisis foremost fan Waid did do the xenophobia earlier in his own origin. But I think Johns is why it stuck more than any general attempt to go retro, as I guess I said above.

  2. #167
    Spectacular Member Yoda's Avatar
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    My point wasn't that the Pre-Crisis elements weren't present, its that they weren't added as part of a conscious effort to incorporate those elements to get Superman back to a Pre-Crisis feel. That would have required some sort of coherent road map, plan, or goal for the character. The Loeb & Johns 2000 era stuff was intentionally reincorporating those elements in an effort to give Superman back some Silver Age elements. The changes in the New 52, particularly coupled with the constant drumbeat of this isn't the old Superman, gave the impression that they were looking more to change recognizable elements for the sake of changing recognizable elements, some of which we, as fans, could loosely tie into some element of the characters history after the fact. Which given Superman's been around for 80 years you likely can find some examples for almost any character attribute you want to defend.

    This excludes Morrison's obvious attempt to recapture the Pre-War Social Justice Warrior Superman. Honestly, half the time I look at Morrison's whole run as it's own character that coincidentally shared a costume with New 52 Superman.

  3. #168
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I understand where you're coming from, and I still disagree. They very much were brought back as a conscious effort to give him a pre-Crisis feel. I know you're giving Morrison's run credit, but where I think you're mistaken is the idea that because the Superman title didn't follow suit properly, it means that there was never any very general plan in that regard. There was. It just wasn't something executed evenly across the Super-line. But the basic platform was laid, so I fail to see how that doesn't count as succeeding in and proving that particular aim. In the end its just one title failed to continue that and was all over the place. That's where the failure was. A big failure, don't get me wrong, but not at all a sign that the original pre-Crisis callbacks were not entirely planned and deliberate. The idea was to use the early, lesser powered state to call back to the Golden Age, then, the power boost move into Silver/Bronze Age themes. Action succeeded in that, and then continued forward coherently. To say it didn't is taking it a bit too far.

    Back to the Superman title, The failure with it falls on editorial, some of that falls on the Superman writers, and some of that even falls on Morrison for not sharing enough during his run in the beginning to allow Perez to craft his story without having to walk on eggshells. As that led him to leave and begin what would become the constant turnover with no consistency of character. But the fact remains that the New 52 Superman's story started with a concrete effort to restore and call back to specific pre-Crisis elements of the three main Ages of that time period. That was Action Comics' job and it did that, and the title continued to move forward from that template after Morrison was gone (outside of one hire gone bad and a resulting interlude before Pak took over). Further, Batman/Superman featured a very coherent and recognizable continuation of the platform. Superman/Wonder Woman as well, at least when Soule was around. Then Truth happened and that upended everything beyond just the problems with the Superman title alone. That was the one though that never had its act together and was the odd-man out with wild, willy-nilly characterizations that sometimes even from one issue to the next within didn't mesh.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; Yesterday at 07:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #169
    RIP, Norm... Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    My point wasn't that the Pre-Crisis elements weren't present, its that they weren't added as part of a conscious effort to incorporate those elements to get Superman back to a Pre-Crisis feel. That would have required some sort of coherent road map, plan, or goal for the character. The Loeb & Johns 2000 era stuff was intentionally reincorporating those elements in an effort to give Superman back some Silver Age elements. The changes in the New 52, particularly coupled with the constant drumbeat of this isn't the old Superman, gave the impression that they were looking more to change recognizable elements for the sake of changing recognizable elements, some of which we, as fans, could loosely tie into some element of the characters history after the fact. Which given Superman's been around for 80 years you likely can find some examples for almost any character attribute you want to defend.

    This excludes Morrison's obvious attempt to recapture the Pre-War Social Justice Warrior Superman. Honestly, half the time I look at Morrison's whole run as it's own character that coincidentally shared a costume with New 52 Superman.
    The only part where I didn't necessarily agree was Lobdell. His penchant for high end pseudoscientific feats, superdickery, previously undiscovered races, philosophical questions about Superman's power level vs responsibility, and bits of DC lore like HIVE are pretty 60s to early 80s in scope. I think he even squeezed out an epilogue or two.

  5. #170
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That's a good point. Its been so long that a lot of details about the run I've forgotten. But plot-wise, yeah, some of it had a pre-Crisis feel. Really the deal with that run imo was that it was the characterization of Superman himself that fell uneven. Sometimes it was good (Superman telling the government to shove off when they wanted to invade his Fortress was gold), sometimes it was very bad (his treatment of Kara, musing to himself if he subconsciously allowed Lois to get hurt to protect his secrets).

    But mainly, overall it was the turnover and the lack of consistency in said turnover that was the big issue with Vol 3 Superman. At least in my opinion.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; Yesterday at 08:01 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

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