Was the New 52 an objective mistake in regards to Superman?

[Kuwagaton]

IMO the New 52 Legion was underrated. I liked who they were and their spot in Morrison's story... but I don't think that should have completely meant scrapping the Kirby stuff.

And yeah, I think he calls himself "Clark" in his own head.

I think if anything, that is the one idea kept through the New 52 and to today distinctly from Byrne.

What was the point of that? Wolfman's pre-Crisis upgrade for him was perfection, why was that thrown out for the stupid Milton Fine stuff? Brainiac doesn't really upset any editorial edicts that I know of at that time, he wasn't another Kryptonian like Supergirl, for example.

It was a piss take to introduce Brainiac from an unconventional angle (not just coming to Earth and trying to shrink stuff) and really, for all the things that could have been untouched, I think that's one of the better cases. All you would have to do is draw the android form instead of his natural Coluan body and it's exactly the same. Even if Superman had fought Brainiac before he could be skeptical that this man really has that consciousness stuck in his head.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the cartoon's John Stewart is in a lot of ways THE John Stewart. I'm not a big follower of the character, but didn't they pretty much change his comic book backstory to match the cartoon's? I think that, and making John the JL GL for a stint, is about as much of a nod or an endorsement to the cartoon you could make.

Some of the reactions I see from John's fans is that he was more interesting than the show depicted him, especially in stuff like MOSAIC. I think fans who encountered him first in the show generally like him a lot from that, but I've seen a wider variety of opinions from his comic fans, not all of them positive.

I'm pretty hard on Timm and the cartoon, but I really was a huge fan of the show. There are few TV shows that I can cite off the top of my head, episode for episode, as this JL cartoon. I thought the first season was awful, but other than that it was good TV, as you say. I think the Kirby "shoehorning," as you put it, was a brilliant move. And there is enough great Superman moments that, if you're a Superman fan, you can really enjoy the show. But also as you say, there's enough terrible Superman moments that can really put you off to it if you're otherwise agnostic on the show.

"Shoehorning" might be too strong a word, as it's not like the Fourth World denizens are strangers to the Super mythos. I think they started to get more heavily featured in it post-Crisis, and Jimmy's comic is, after all, where they first started to appear. But I think they relied on it too much. Timm said in one of the DVD interviews that they brought in Apokolps because Superman's rogues gallery was weak. In light of how few villains they used from the comics, and how infrequently they were used outside of Lex and Brainiac, it seems like an extension of Timm's opinion that Superman isn't interesting.

It gives the vibe that they don't think the Super mythos is strong on its own, which I don't care for. But there are also several great moments as you say, it's just not as consistently satisfying as the early B:TAS episodes. Which is something Superman really needed.

It was a piss take to introduce Brainiac from an unconventional angle (not just coming to Earth and trying to shrink stuff) and really, for all the things that could have been untouched, I think that's one of the better cases. All you would have to do is draw the android form instead of his natural Coluan body and it's exactly the same. Even if Superman had fought Brainiac before he could be skeptical that this man really has that consciousness stuck in his head.

That I think would have worked better. But in general, I didn't really understand how having to describe the pre- and post Crisis versions of characters was ever going to streamline anything and make it easier to understand, so I'm kind of against it on principle. Milton Fine showing up in a Superman history with all his prior encounters with Superman could have worked better. Ditto Matrix becoming the next Supergirl after Kara died instead of replacing her spot in canon altogether.

[Ascended]

I wish he got his way. I'm not sure the comics would be much better, as I don't think Byrne's storytelling has aged particularly well. But a lot of the changes he made could have happened with ridiculous ease.

Im with ya. Im of the mind that DC never should have rebooted in the first place. They could have handled their problems in a way that didn't invalidate fifty years of story and crack their IP's in half. DC needed a big huge gimmick to get attention, but that could be achieved in many ways.

I think if anything, that is the one idea kept through the New 52 and to today distinctly from Byrne.

Was that a Byrne original? I dont have any of my trades nearby but I thought that was from the Golden Age, before "Clark" and "Superman" really started to develop semi-separate, quasi-independent personalities and lives?

If its from Byrne, then I give him all the credit due him for that choice. Kal *should* think of himself as "Clark" even if the "Clark" in his own head is vastly different from the "Clark" that most people get to meet.

Also; how did we end up talking about post-Crisis when this thread is about the New52?

[JAK]

Sounds like we got into comics (or at least Superman's) around the same time. So I missed MoS-86 too.

It still rubs me wrong, because Clark is supposed to be so much bigger than "real" life.....like Morrison said; Superman's is a normal (sorta) life explored through a superhuman lens....and Bynre just made the guy 100% boringly mundane. But looking at it like a young idiot who hasn't really learned anything yet does make it slightly more palpable.

Oh, I completely sympathize. For the time, they were getting away from a lot of that, one could argue too far, hence the hard turn. But I do kinda like it as a starting point, only because that's an 80's way of having both a (semi-)Golden Age mentality as well as the more Reeve-like Earth focus at first, and letting things spread from there. He'll get to the normal-via-superhuman, it's just not there yet.

From what I understand, Byrne didn't actually want to reboot Clark at all. He wanted to work with the mythos as it was, and just trim it and point it in the right direction. He obviously didn't get his way, but I would've loved to see what he would've done if DC had allowed him to keep all the toys.

That's absolutely true. Many of the hard trims were DC's choices, he just did about as good of a job as anyone ever has of actually selling those changes and making them into a solid framework to build from. But I agree that it would have been cool to see how he's handle a softer-boot approach.

A lot of the Atlantean silent school stuff is perfect for my Dr. Fate, and the rest goes great with my Manta/Aqualad. I haven't played a lot (school) but this Atlantis DLC is frigging amazing!

Big time - what little I've been able to get on it, I've loved exploring Atlantis. The devs outdid themselves on that one!

No, i get what you mean.

And yeah, I think he calls himself "Clark" in his own head. It was the first name he remembers (in most continuities) and its the name he's built a life around. He's also Kal-El and Superman, and I think he can switch between those roles and "personalities" with ease, but in his head, he's Clark. Just not the Clark most people actually know; that guy is so embellished he's only partially real.

Exactly. I tend to think of it not so much as not fully real, but moreso that each is a somewhat crystalised facet of himself. Kinda like how people tend to act differently with friends from work than they do gaming friends, music friends, etc - just on a whole other level (which calls back to Morrison's comparison in a nicely unexpected fashion, too).

[JAK]

Also; how did we end up talking about post-Crisis when this thread is about the New52?

That'd likely be my fault; call it a torquasm-vo mind trick.

[Ascended]

That'd likely be my fault; call it a torquasm-vo mind trick.

Dammit JAK these are not the droids you're looking for!

Fine. If we're going off topic, we're going off topic: Kryptonian torquasm-vo vs. Jedi Force tricks. Who wins?

No yellow sun enhancements.

[SiegePerilous02]

Also; how did we end up talking about post-Crisis when this thread is about the New52?

That'd likely be my fault; call it a torquasm-vo mind trick.

Due to the fact that they were both reboots, and that the New 52 replaced the pre-Flashpoint Superman (who was arguably just still the post-Crisis Superman), I think comparisons are also just kinda inevitable.

[HeroVladimir93]

Dammit JAK these are not the droids you're looking for!

Fine. If we're going off topic, we're going off topic: Kryptonian torquasm-vo vs. Jedi Force tricks. Who wins?

No yellow sun enhancements.

Kryptonian torquasm-vo. Even without the solar enhancements, Superman is a very smart and disciplined person. Also, Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-willed, which Superman is anything but.

Due to the fact that they were both reboots, and that the New 52 replaced the pre-Flashpoint Superman (who was arguably just still the post-Crisis Superman), I think comparisons are also just kinda inevitable.

I admit my complaints against the New 52 are mostly of the creative and narrative kind. If DC got high sales from all of this, good for them. Like I said before, the Superman franchise needs to be profitable in order to survive.

[JAK]

Dammit JAK these are not the droids you're looking for!

Fine. If we're going off topic, we're going off topic: Kryptonian torquasm-vo vs. Jedi Force tricks. Who wins?

No yellow sun enhancements.

LOL!! Love it! Um, I mean...: Droids? I thought I was looking for Dreadnaught?

As for Vo vs Jed, I'd say Vo, but I'm biased. Who's the one dealing in each, that's the key.

Sword of Superman beats any Jedi sword, though - that one I know.

Due to the fact that they were both reboots, and that the New 52 replaced the pre-Flashpoint Superman (who was arguably just still the post-Crisis Superman), I think comparisons are also just kinda inevitable.

I'd say Pre-Flashpoint and Post-Crisis almost need to be separated like Golden and Silver were, but since we're not there yet (and with the merging likely never will be, which is probably best), then pretty much.

Kryptonian torquasm-vo. Even without the solar enhancements, Superman is a very smart and disciplined person. Also, Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-willed, which Superman is anything but.

That'd be the question, then. Is it Superman vs someone, or another Kryptonian? Or another species, entirely?

I admit my complaints against the New 52 are mostly of the creative and narrative kind. If DC got high sales from all of this, good for them. Like I said before, the Superman franchise needs to be profitable in order to survive.

Mine are partially creative, but mostly in the promotion and discussion. They said exactly the right things to piss me off and send me packing, so much so that it took booting that Superman for "mine" to bring me back (before then, I planned on buying the "Superman: Lois & Clark" books in the hope it'd be an ongoing, and just not mess with the main books).

[kingaliencracker]

Morrison's Action was awesome. Perez's Superman...not so much. But that's not really his fault. Morrison was burned by his experiences with DC writers ripping off his ideas during Final Crisis so he made it clear to DC that he would not be sharing his plots with anyone. So it felt like two totally different characters in two totally different continuities.

Honestly, DC should have just rebooted everything, and the Superman in Action should have been the "real time" Superman. But they didn't want to undo Johns' Green Lantern so once again they dropped the ball.

[Miles To Go]

it felt like two totally different characters in two totally different continuities.

A wee bit off topic, but I think we're in a similar place with Bendis now

[HeroVladimir93]

A wee bit off topic, but I think we're in a similar place with Bendis now

Not really. The Unity Saga (well, at least the first five issues) happens before the story on Action Comics. Also, Superman is first and foremost a Superman-centric book. Action Comics feels like a Metropolis book that just so happens to feature Superman.

[Miles To Go]

Not really. The Unity Saga (well, at least the first five issues) happens before the story on Action Comics. Also, Superman is first and foremost a Superman-centric book. Action Comics feels like a Metropolis book that just so happens to feature Superman.

That's not what I meant. Bendis' whole era feels different regardless of what story you're following.

[HeroVladimir93]

That's not what I meant. Bendis' whole era feels different regardless of what story you're following.

If you're talking about the change in tone (space adventure vs down-to-Earth crimefighting), then yes, it feels different. Also, New 52 Superman didn't really have a single, cohesive narrative. Instead, the creative teams were more interested in delivering their own versions of Superman. At best, it felt like they were focusing on different aspects of the same character. At worst, they were writing completely different characters who just so happened to share the Superman name, physical appearance and powers. Bendis has the advantage of handling two books, while Tomasi and Jurgens benefitted from a stronger and more cohesive editorial direction.

[Ascended]

That's not what I meant. Bendis' whole era feels different regardless of what story you're following.

It's definitely different from what Tomasi was doing (probably Jurgens too? Didn't read his Action). But that can be said of most creators. Loeb's run felt different, and took Clark in different directions, than Stern, Jurgens, and the rest of the triangle era crew did. And those guys did something different than what Byrne had done before them. Johns did a totally different Superman than Austin or Kelly (and wrote the same guy in the New52 later on, which was completely different from what Pak and Morrison and Lobdell did).

I wouldn't say Bendis has done nearly enough to call this a different version of Superman. At least not yet. It's just a different take on the same guy from a different writer.