Does anything from the New 52 make your list of favorites?

[byrd156]

Huge missed opportunity there.

I do think the success of the Wolfman NTT has become a chain hanging around the necks of the characters and the Titans IP. That Fab5/NTT format just doesn't seem to work anymore, no matter how hard DC tries.

I thought wiping that history out might've been a necessary evil to let the characters finally grow and move into more successful, profitable places. But like many other opportunities, DC squandered the chance by refusing to go all-in.

I want the history back in place because of how it enriches the characters, but I very much don't want the status quo back in place. Titans reunions never work. DC has tried for twenty years and failed. They need to accept that they'll never capture Wolfman's magic again, and move the f*ck on.

The problem isn't that the Fab Five era doesn't work, it's that every time it's brought back post 2005 it's been half assed and unimaginative.

Go read Grayson's run on Titans from the late 90s early 2000s. The crossover with the LoSH and Technis Imperative are kick ass comics. These characters work when effort and love are put into them. When you destroy their history and constantly hold the characters back in-universe and behind the scenes it doesn't make for a fun read.

[Ascended]

The problem isn't that the Fab Five era doesn't work, it's that every time it's brought back post 2005 it's been half assed and unimaginative.

Go read Grayson's run on Titans from the late 90s early 2000s. The crossover with the LoSH and Technis Imperative are kick ass comics. These characters work when effort and love are put into them. When you destroy their history and constantly hold the characters back in-universe and behind the scenes it doesn't make for a fun read.

I did enjoy the hell out of the Technis Imperative (and the Arsenal mini, and the Batman-Arsenal one-shot), that was f*cking awesome and my first introduction to a lot of the characters who had been Titans over the years. I ate that mini up man! But once the monthly Titans series began the quality just plummeted.

The idea of the Titans training the next generation has merit. DC doesn't have a "hero school" and it made a lot of sense to take the OG sidekicks and make them the mentors. But Devin (Devon?) Grayson gave us what? One "new" trainee for each of the Fab5? A few of whom were actually old Titans like Kori and Vic? The f**k kind of "training program" is that? They had something like seven "teachers" two "students" and poor Jesse Quick, who was sorta stuck in the middle.

The narratives were, by and large, just re-hashing stories with rogues who weren't impressive in their day and/or hadn't aged well. HIVE? Gargoyle? Yeah, exciting stuff. Oh, and let's not forget the storyline where the Titans quit. Because that never gets old. I'm sure someone betrayed them too, but it's either been so long I forgot or it happened after the first few years when I finally gave up and left the title.

And I know it's subjective as hell, but I really dislike how gushy she wrote the Titans. My daughter loves My Little Pony and I feel like a lot of the interactions were on that kind of hyper-realized yet simple emotional level, while actually lacking some of the nuance and craft I must grudgingly admit the cartoon offers.

I'm glad for anyone who read that era and enjoyed it. I myself had very high hopes, and it wasn't all bad. Some really good moments and issues came out of that run. And I'll always love Devin Grayson for trying to move Cyborg forward as a character. But it's not what I would call a blueprint for success. From the faulty execution of the premise to the boringly re-tread roster and the "friendship is magic!!" personalities Devin gave everyone (its like they never stopped smiling. It was creepy!) I kind of feel like it's a great example of how to *not* handle the Titans.

Of all the reunions we've had since the end of the Wolfman era, that is probably the second best run (following Johns' '06 series). And that's not saying much. If it takes a writer of Johns' level to make the NTT work today, that's a pretty good sign that the concept and roster needs to be put on the shelf for a while. Not the characters. Not the history. Not the friendships. But the team and the roster just aren't working, haven't worked, and seem to be achieving middling sales through the sheer power of nostalgia alone, because no one has anything good to say about the current series either.

But this isn't the place to talk about the Titans from twenty years ago. This is where we're supposed to bitch about the New52, right?

[byrd156]

I did enjoy the hell out of the Technis Imperative (and the Arsenal mini, and the Batman-Arsenal one-shot), that was f*cking awesome and my first introduction to a lot of the characters who had been Titans over the years. I ate that mini up man! But once the monthly Titans series began the quality just plummeted.

The idea of the Titans training the next generation has merit. DC doesn't have a "hero school" and it made a lot of sense to take the OG sidekicks and make them the mentors. But Devin (Devon?) Grayson gave us what? One "new" trainee for each of the Fab5? A few of whom were actually old Titans like Kori and Vic? The f**k kind of "training program" is that? They had something like seven "teachers" two "students" and poor Jesse Quick, who was sorta stuck in the middle.

The narratives were, by and large, just re-hashing stories with rogues who weren't impressive in their day and/or hadn't aged well. HIVE? Gargoyle? Yeah, exciting stuff. Oh, and let's not forget the storyline where the Titans quit. Because that never gets old. I'm sure someone betrayed them too, but it's either been so long I forgot or it happened after the first few years when I finally gave up and left the title.

And I know it's subjective as hell, but I really dislike how gushy she wrote the Titans. My daughter loves My Little Pony and I feel like a lot of the interactions were on that kind of hyper-realized yet simple emotional level, while actually lacking some of the nuance and craft I must grudgingly admit the cartoon offers.

I'm glad for anyone who read that era and enjoyed it. I myself had very high hopes, and it wasn't all bad. Some really good moments and issues came out of that run. And I'll always love Devin Grayson for trying to move Cyborg forward as a character. But it's not what I would call a blueprint for success. From the faulty execution of the premise to the boringly re-tread roster and the "friendship is magic!!" personalities Devin gave everyone (its like they never stopped smiling. It was creepy!) I kind of feel like it's a great example of how to *not* handle the Titans.

Of all the reunions we've had since the end of the Wolfman era, that is probably the second best run (following Johns' '06 series). And that's not saying much. If it takes a writer of Johns' level to make the NTT work today, that's a pretty good sign that the concept and roster needs to be put on the shelf for a while. Not the characters. Not the history. Not the friendships. But the team and the roster just aren't working, haven't worked, and seem to be achieving middling sales through the sheer power of nostalgia alone, because no one has anything good to say about the current series either.

But this isn't the place to talk about the Titans from twenty years ago. This is where we're supposed to bitch about the New52, right?

Every thread is for bitching about the New 52.

Speaking of the Titans, the Culling was probably the absolute lowest the franchise has ever been. But for a positive I'll say that I enjoyed the new Titans Hunt. It wasn't great but it was easily the best of that era. Then again it was more DC you than New 52 but I would argue that we are still in the New 52.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I find it kind of interesting to consider that most of what was best about the New 52 was the stuff that really didn't need a full scale reboot to happen. Geoff Johns's Aquaman and Green Lantern, Snyder's Batman and most of the Bat-line, Bunn's Sinestro, Grayson, Batman Inc., etc. None of that stuff needed a rewriting of continuity and in fact, a lot of it just acted as if the reboot had never even happened.

The only exceptions to that would probably be Lemire's Green Arrow and Azzarello's Wonder Woman.

[byrd156]

I find it kind of interesting to consider that most of what was best about the New 52 was the stuff that really didn't need a full scale reboot to happen. Geoff Johns's Aquaman and Green Lantern, Snyder's Batman and most of the Bat-line, Bunn's Sinestro, Grayson, Batman Inc., etc. None of that stuff needed a rewriting of continuity and in fact, a lot of it just acted as if the reboot had never even happened.

The only exceptions to that would probably be Lemire's Green Arrow and Azzarello's Wonder Woman.

You're right, I always thought that most of the good and praised runs didn't need everything else to change just so they can happen.

Most of the books that were bad were overwhelmed with the change. Having to build whole new worlds while not being sure what was still canon and all that. You would get books like Hawk & Dove, the terrible Deathstroke series, Teen Titans, etc. Books dealing directly with the universe/reboot changes were bad because they had to balance too many things while trying to tell their own stories. Most of which weren't going to be very good anyway.

[SiegePerilous02]

And I know it's subjective as hell, but I really dislike how gushy she wrote the Titans. My daughter loves My Little Pony and I feel like a lot of the interactions were on that kind of hyper-realized yet simple emotional level, while actually lacking some of the nuance and craft I must grudgingly admit the cartoon offers.

Yes, this turned me off pretty quick. I read the Technis Imperative trade a loooooong time ago, and it was a solid comic that had the Titans acting like themselves and not letting the JLA kick them around, which was great. Plenty of other great scenes as well, such as Dick finding Donna with her "son" and Raven putting Orion in his place.

But the Fab 5 holding hands and gushing about how much they loved each other was a bit much. it sounds like that was a regular thing in her ongoing run, so I don't think it would hold much appeal to me.

But this isn't the place to talk about the Titans from twenty years ago. This is where we're supposed to bitch about the New52, right?

One thing always seems to lead to the other.

I find it kind of interesting to consider that most of what was best about the New 52 was the stuff that really didn't need a full scale reboot to happen. Geoff Johns's Aquaman and Green Lantern, Snyder's Batman and most of the Bat-line, Bunn's Sinestro, Grayson, Batman Inc., etc. None of that stuff needed a rewriting of continuity and in fact, a lot of it just acted as if the reboot had never even happened.

The only exceptions to that would probably be Lemire's Green Arrow and Azzarello's Wonder Woman.

Well, with Aquaman at least, the marriage with Mera was initially gone, they never had a kid that got killed by Manta, Manta's motivation for hating Aquaman was completely different, Orm's entire character and motivations were changed (and improved, IMO), Tula was now Orm's half sister and had never died, etc. The major iconic elements and characters were in place, but a lot of the little details were different. Johns could have implemented these changes in pre-Flashpoint continuity, but he definitely would have had to do some retcons.

I think with Aquaman and definitely Wonder Woman, they just didn't have many big story arcs and runs that progressed their respective mythos like Superman, Batman, GL, the Flash and the Titans did. Like in the entire post Crisis canon, not a whole lot actually happens in Wonder Woman: she died and became a goddess but it happened in Byrne's run so nobody really cares, her villains never get any focus or character development, she had a parade of forgettable replacement love interests for Steve that never went anywhere, different supporting casts in every run, etc. Rucka's run was great and actually seemed to be progressing towards something before it got hijacked by Infinite Crisis BS, and then we got Amazons Attack!, which everyone is eager to forget. Donna was going through a bunch of crazy nonsense elsewhere and rarely impacted the Wonder Woman book, and aside from gaining a new sidekick in Cassie, Diana's life wasn't that different from where it started. We weren't really losing a lot by giving her a clean slate, and even had the opportunity to get some characters (mainly Steve) back on track. What they actually implemented though was (of course) a mixed bag that resulted in some more problems.

[LifeIsILL]

The first half of Batwoman was great, the art was perfect.

Detective Comics after Daniels left was great, I enjoyed it better than Snyder.

Jeff Lemire's Green Arrow was probably the best thing out of New 52.

I know people hated Lobdell's Teen Titans, but I thought it got remarkably better after the Death of a Family stuff.

Starfire's solo was great.

Tony Daniel's Deathstroke was fun, and probably his best work too.

There was a lot I enjoyed, more than I thought I would.

[SiegePerilous02]

The first half of Batwoman was great, the art was perfect.

Yeah I think I forgot to add this as well. The first few arcs with Williams III on art were great. I wish it went on longer than it did.

[Agent Z]

Yes, this turned me off pretty quick. I read the Technis Imperative trade a loooooong time ago, and it was a solid comic that had the Titans acting like themselves and not letting the JLA kick them around, which was great. Plenty of other great scenes as well, such as Dick finding Donna with her "son" and Raven putting Orion in his place.

But the Fab 5 holding hands and gushing about how much they loved each other was a bit much. it sounds like that was a regular thing in her ongoing run, so I don't think it would hold much appeal to me.



One thing always seems to lead to the other.



Well, with Aquaman at least, the marriage with Mera was initially gone, they never had a kid that got killed by Manta, Manta's motivation for hating Aquaman was completely different, Orm's entire character and motivations were changed (and improved, IMO), Tula was now Orm's half sister and had never died, etc. The major iconic elements and characters were in place, but a lot of the little details were different. Johns could have implemented these changes in pre-Flashpoint continuity, but he definitely would have had to do some retcons.

I think with Aquaman and definitely Wonder Woman, they just didn't have many big story arcs and runs that progressed their respective mythos like Superman, Batman, GL, the Flash and the Titans did. Like in the entire post Crisis canon, not a whole lot actually happens in Wonder Woman: she died and became a goddess but it happened in Byrne's run so nobody really cares, her villains never get any focus or character development, she had a parade of forgettable replacement love interests for Steve that never went anywhere, different supporting casts in every run, etc. Rucka's run was great and actually seemed to be progressing towards something before it got hijacked by Infinite Crisis BS, and then we got Amazons Attack!, which everyone is eager to forget. Donna was going through a bunch of crazy nonsense elsewhere and rarely impacted the Wonder Woman book, and aside from gaining a new sidekick in Cassie, Diana's life wasn't that different from where it started. We weren't really losing a lot by giving her a clean slate, and even had the opportunity to get some characters (mainly Steve) back on track. What they actually implemented though was (of course) a mixed bag that resulted in some more problems.

As someone who read it, I assure you it wasn't the case.

[SiegePerilous02]

As someone who read it, I assure you it wasn't the case.

IDK, it seems Ascended read it as well, and he came away with a different stance. As with most things, whether it lands or not is a subjective thing for the reader.

Some of the Technis scenes didn't do it for me though, from what I recall.

[Confuzzled]

New 52 was probably the best time for a Poison Ivy fan. She had a good stint on BoP, got an interesting new backstory, had strong appearances in Detective Comics, received one of her best stories to date in Batgirl Annual #2 and then got her very first miniseries. There was plenty of fodder for the HarleyxIvy crew too.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well, with Aquaman at least, the marriage with Mera was initially gone, they never had a kid that got killed by Manta, Manta's motivation for hating Aquaman was completely different, Orm's entire character and motivations were changed (and improved, IMO), Tula was now Orm's half sister and had never died, etc. The major iconic elements and characters were in place, but a lot of the little details were different. Johns could have implemented these changes in pre-Flashpoint continuity, but he definitely would have had to do some retcons.

Except, again, most of that had almost little to no impact on the stories that were told. And, in large part, Johns's Aquaman basically read as a continuation of the stuff that Johns had done with the character in Brightest Day. The resurgence of Aquaman's Silver Age origin, the new origin for Mera as an agent of Xebel sent to kill Arthur, etc. were all established in Brightest Day. Yes, Aquaman and Mera weren't actually married anymore, but they still lived together and acted as if they were married. Manta's new motivation is definitely something that could have been implemented Pre-Flashpoint; Tula could have been brought back by any means; and with Rebirth, who knows if Manta killing Aquaman and Mera's son is in continuity or not. Also, the New 52 didn't really change Orm's character and motivations that much. Him being Aquaman's Atlantean half-brother is nothing new. Post-Crisis, he was the son of the Atlantean wizard Atlan and he has always, ever since the Silver Age, believed himself the rightful ruler of Atlantis. The New 52 simply made him Atlanna's son instead of Atlan's.

[SiegePerilous02]

Except, again, most of that had almost little to no impact on the stories that were told. And, in large part, Johns's Aquaman basically read as a continuation of the stuff that Johns had done with the character in Brightest Day. The resurgence of Aquaman's Silver Age origin, the new origin for Mera as an agent of Xebel sent to kill Arthur, etc. were all established in Brightest Day. Yes, Aquaman and Mera weren't actually married anymore, but they still lived together and acted as if they were married. Manta's new motivation is definitely something that could have been implemented Pre-Flashpoint; Tula could have been brought back by any means; and with Rebirth, who knows if Manta killing Aquaman and Mera's son is in continuity or not. Also, the New 52 didn't really change Orm's character and motivations that much. Him being Aquaman's Atlantean half-brother is nothing new. Post-Crisis, he was the son of the Atlantean wizard Atlan and he has always, ever since the Silver Age, believed himself the rightful ruler of Atlantis. The New 52 simply made him Atlanna's son instead of Atlan's.

Some of those things could definitely have happened in the original continuity. Fact is though, it didn't, it happened in the rebooted canon. And it overall didn't seem to bother people that much. Tula could have been resurrected at anytime, but in New 52 she never died and she and Arthur didn't have a long history of knowing each other. They still would have had to do some tooling around to make her Orm's half sister. Garth didn't have a history as Aqualad until Rebirth, I don't believe. And in the old canon, was it ever established that Arthur Curry's death had anything to do with Manta? A lot of this would involve changing canon around in some capacity.

There's more to Orm than being Arthur's Atlantean half brother. Did he ever genuinely love his brother in all his history like he did in the New 52? And while I'm due for a re-read of Johns' run, I don't recall Orm viewing himself as the rightful ruler. He viewed it as his duty and did it because Arthur wouldn't. And only did what he perceived as best for his people. Pre-Flashpoint Orm was always kind of a generically evil villain. There would be a lot of twisting of canon to get this new take on Orm's character to work. Johns had a blank slate with the New 52, and he took advantage of it.

Until Arthur Jr. is confirmed, it's probably best to not assume he's canon. Especially as Rebirth is basically just continuing the New 52 Aquaman lore, where Arthur and Mera weren't together that long prior to the beginning of the story and there's no indication they ever had a kid.

[Raijin]

This is probably none of my business but i don't think complaining about the New 52 was something the OP had in mind. Aren't there other posts for that?

[byrd156]

This is probably none of my business but i don't think complaining about the New 52 was something the OP had in mind. Aren't there other posts for that?

People are having a back and forth about the New 52. It's still on the topic.