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Thread: Batwoman (2019)

  1. #961
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    This one wasn’t as good as I hoped it would-everything happened way too fast. Catherine does all these things and we barely scratched the surface. What did Jacob know and when? Alice implicated him too. Batwoman was barely effective in this one. Plus, this back and forth between Alice and Kate is starting to bug me. They dance around each other and it just doesn’t mean anything.
    My question is that, with the number of people who know that Jacob was replaced (Kate, Mary, Sophie, Tyler), how long will Jacob actually be in prison. And to what the Darknight Detective said- with Catherine being killed after saying all of that, how long until it's widely known that she was actually killed by Alice? It just feels if Alice is trying to get her father sent to prison for the rest of his life, she did a horrible job framing him.

  2. #962
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    I was going to say, having her confess to all these things, just to kill her off is pointless.

  3. #963
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    New CW program - The Lena and Alice Show:

    "Everyone I have loved or befriended has betrayed me by keeping secrets from me (my own secrets, however, are hella cool!)"

    "Boo hoo! My father and sister were in the same house I was being kept as a prisoner and refused to use their imaginary psychic/x-ray powers to find me!!!"

    The crossover event can throw in other whiney characters from other Arrowverse shows.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  4. #964
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    My question is that, with the number of people who know that Jacob was replaced (Kate, Mary, Sophie, Tyler), how long will Jacob actually be in prison.
    I have a feeling the GCPD is going to play a part in keeping him locked up. If Alice a Crows mole, she can easily have a cop mole.

    And to what the Darknight Detective said- with Catherine being killed after saying all of that, how long until it's widely known that she was actually killed by Alice? It just feels if Alice is trying to get her father sent to prison for the rest of his life, she did a horrible job framing him.
    I have a feeling that's intentional; that Alice bit off more than she can ultimately chew. If she had played it much simpler, by framing Catherine's speech as just a public confession/suicide, she would likely have a much easier time of it. Same if she had only worked to undermine public trust in the Crows rather than lean into the whole "the Crows only protect the rich" narrative, which holds no water. But she did both, and as a result, it's easy to pick at the seams if she doesn't have someone in the GCPD covering for her.
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  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    I have a feeling the GCPD is going to play a part in keeping him locked up. If Alice a Crows mole, she can easily have a cop mole.



    I have a feeling that's intentional; that Alice bit off more than she can ultimately chew. If she had played it much simpler, by framing Catherine's speech as just a public confession/suicide, she would likely have a much easier time of it. Same if she had only worked to undermine public trust in the Crows rather than lean into the whole "the Crows only protect the rich" narrative, which holds no water. But she did both, and as a result, it's easy to pick at the seams if she doesn't have someone in the GCPD covering for her.
    Now that I think about it, Sophie couldn't reach the Commissioner. It could be interesting if they were a mole for Alice.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    My question is that, with the number of people who know that Jacob was replaced (Kate, Mary, Sophie, Tyler), how long will Jacob actually be in prison. And to what the Darknight Detective said- with Catherine being killed after saying all of that, how long until it's widely known that she was actually killed by Alice? It just feels if Alice is trying to get her father sent to prison for the rest of his life, she did a horrible job framing him.
    Knowing that Jacob was replaced and being able to prove it are two different things.

    If anything, that speech Catherine gave at the Humanitarian Ball and the reveal that she faked Beth's death both provide motive for Jacob to kill her.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-02-2019 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #967
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Those were some great scenes with Alice & Jacob and Mary & Catherine. Sophie's scenes with whatsisname were perfunctory - I like Ruby Rose, but her non-Sophie co-stars have been acting rings around her so far. I get that she's not meant to be the most expressive person, but that means the bar is higher for her and she kinda needs to step it up.

    And yes, the Lena(from "Supergirl")/Alice storylines play out very similarly, but I think the ending to both storylines is going to hinge on how they've decided to play out their traumas --- Lena thinks she's doing something good, and is going to have a harsh reality check when she realizes she's the bad guy (maybe this is more like "Jessica Jones") and Alice will have to face the reality that she really is Beth and perhaps that difference is that will determine how these two storylines play out.

  8. #968
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    My question is that, with the number of people who know that Jacob was replaced (Kate, Mary, Sophie, Tyler), how long will Jacob actually be in prison. And to what the Darknight Detective said- with Catherine being killed after saying all of that, how long until it's widely known that she was actually killed by Alice? It just feels if Alice is trying to get her father sent to prison for the rest of his life, she did a horrible job framing him.
    Do any of them have any actual proof that it wasn't Jacob though or that Mouse even exists? And by the time it's all settled, how much would people trust the Crows? Either way, Jacob's life is destroyed.

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    I love how Batwoman breaks the bo staff thinking it's detachable, and instead she just breaks another gadget. It must be a record .

    So...she's got Tim's bo-staff, and she can separate them into tonfa's like Dick's escrima sticks. I don't see her dual-wielding guns like Jason, but maybe she'll someday swing around a sword like Damian. I wonder if part of the reason she's using weapons more is because she's become less convinced of her hand-to-hand fighting?

    I still have a hard time believing Kate really cares about Mary that much. They hardly interact outside Batwoman and Kate seems to blow off Mary any chance she gets. Makes all of Mary's efforts just seem wasted. I guess you know what they say about "you don't know what you have, until you lose it."

    So this really is all just a revenge plot by Alice to get payback from the family that abandoned her and for the woman who stole her life, at least from Alice's perspective.

    "Joker, Riddler...Alice." What, no mention of Two-Face? Penguin? Do we not mention that name after his mayoral debacle?

    I will give Alice this much...she fretted so much about her dress, but what she went with really stole the show .

    Catherine may not have suffered her comic counterpart's fate of being stuck in comic book limbo, but I can't say death is a much better end. I also can't say I really cared or liked her all that much, but I also don't think she deserved to be put in such a cruel and unwinnable position. At least she got to go out saving her daughter and acknowledging how proud she is of Mary.

    Kate Kane may be a sister...but above all she's a daddy's girl. And Alice learned that even being her sister won't protect you if you harm her father.

    Man, Kate really didn't accomplish anything in this episode. She didn't catch Alice, Catherine died, Mary hates her, and her father was arrested for a crime he didn't commit. What a way to go into Crisis, huh ?

    Nothing sets someone on the path to being a vigilante more then a dead parent. It'll be interesting to see what Mary does now that her mom is dead and she hates Alice. She wants nothing to do with Kate, but will she support Batwoman capturing/killing Alice?

    Sophie is caught in a bisexual love triangle. I would like to think breaking them up might save Tyler, but I'm still betting on him dying at the end of the season.

    I wonder what Jacob took more personally...his wife's murder, or getting framed for it? Or both. But he really didn't seem to beat up about Catherine's death, even if he was in the middle of divorcing her from his perspective, though she was still his wife. Maybe he's just internalizing it.

    I think the show wants me to believe Jacob and Kate are serious about bringing down Alice and have lost all faith in her, but I just don't. Family doesn't work like that, otherwise Alice wouldn't be as obsessed with them as she is when she keeps denying she's Beth.

    I get it's setting up Crisis, but I have to imagine how random that Nash Wells scene at the end would be for anyone who only just watches this show.

  10. #970
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wonder if part of the reason she's using weapons more is because she's become less convinced of her hand-to-hand fighting?
    I don't think so. If you have access to weapons, use them. Doing otherwise is kinda foolish.

    I still have a hard time believing Kate really cares about Mary that much.


    She went out of her way to save Mary's life. Of course she cares about her.

    I think the show wants me to believe Jacob and Kate are serious about bringing down Alice and have lost all faith in her, but I just don't. Family doesn't work like that, otherwise Alice wouldn't be as obsessed with them as she is when she keeps denying she's Beth.
    I don't understand what you mean here.
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  11. #971
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    I don't think so. If you have access to weapons, use them. Doing otherwise is kinda foolish.
    I guess. Maybe it just seems that way to me given she hasn't had the best hand-to-hand feats on the show so far.
    She went out of her way to save Mary's life. Of course she cares about her.
    That feels more like a hero's obligation to a civilian then the level of care I would expect from people close like family, or actual friends.
    I don't understand what you mean here.
    I think they're talking a good game about finally giving up on Alice, but I don't think they're going to be able to follow through with it.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Do any of them have any actual proof that it wasn't Jacob though or that Mouse even exists? And by the time it's all settled, how much would people trust the Crows? Either way, Jacob's life is destroyed.
    Mary put it together really fast that the Skin Thief that escaped from Arkham was impersonating Jacob. But I'm unsure if the world at large knows that Mouse can impersonate anyone.

  13. #973
    Astonishing Member protege's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I love how Batwoman breaks the bo staff thinking it's detachable, and instead she just breaks another gadget. It must be a record .

    So...she's got Tim's bo-staff, and she can separate them into tonfa's like Dick's escrima sticks. I don't see her dual-wielding guns like Jason, but maybe she'll someday swing around a sword like Damian. I wonder if part of the reason she's using weapons more is because she's become less convinced of her hand-to-hand fighting?

    I still have a hard time believing Kate really cares about Mary that much. They hardly interact outside Batwoman and Kate seems to blow off Mary any chance she gets. Makes all of Mary's efforts just seem wasted. I guess you know what they say about "you don't know what you have, until you lose it."

    So this really is all just a revenge plot by Alice to get payback from the family that abandoned her and for the woman who stole her life, at least from Alice's perspective.

    "Joker, Riddler...Alice." What, no mention of Two-Face? Penguin? Do we not mention that name after his mayoral debacle?

    I will give Alice this much...she fretted so much about her dress, but what she went with really stole the show .

    Catherine may not have suffered her comic counterpart's fate of being stuck in comic book limbo, but I can't say death is a much better end. I also can't say I really cared or liked her all that much, but I also don't think she deserved to be put in such a cruel and unwinnable position. At least she got to go out saving her daughter and acknowledging how proud she is of Mary.

    Kate Kane may be a sister...but above all she's a daddy's girl. And Alice learned that even being her sister won't protect you if you harm her father.

    Man, Kate really didn't accomplish anything in this episode. She didn't catch Alice, Catherine died, Mary hates her, and her father was arrested for a crime he didn't commit. What a way to go into Crisis, huh ?

    Nothing sets someone on the path to being a vigilante more then a dead parent. It'll be interesting to see what Mary does now that her mom is dead and she hates Alice. She wants nothing to do with Kate, but will she support Batwoman capturing/killing Alice?

    Sophie is caught in a bisexual love triangle. I would like to think breaking them up might save Tyler, but I'm still betting on him dying at the end of the season.

    I wonder what Jacob took more personally...his wife's murder, or getting framed for it? Or both. But he really didn't seem to beat up about Catherine's death, even if he was in the middle of divorcing her from his perspective, though she was still his wife. Maybe he's just internalizing it.

    I think the show wants me to believe Jacob and Kate are serious about bringing down Alice and have lost all faith in her, but I just don't. Family doesn't work like that, otherwise Alice wouldn't be as obsessed with them as she is when she keeps denying she's Beth.

    I get it's setting up Crisis, but I have to imagine how random that Nash Wells scene at the end would be for anyone who only just watches this show.
    When exactly did mouse replace Jacob?

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I will give Alice this much...she fretted so much about her dress, but what she went with really stole the show .

    That was a great dress.


    Catherine may not have suffered her comic counterpart's fate of being stuck in comic book limbo, but I can't say death is a much better end. I also can't say I really cared or liked her all that much, but I also don't think she deserved to be put in such a cruel and unwinnable position. At least she got to go out saving her daughter and acknowledging how proud she is of Mary.
    I really feel like they were trying to pull a Moira Queen with Catherine, but it just didn't work. With Moira, we had almost two full seasons to get to know her, to lover her, to hate her, to see her complicated relationships with her children. So when she was killed, I was genuinely upset. But with Catherine, we've had, what, 7 episodes where we see she's a morally grey person who by inserting herself in the search for Beth ended up causing her to be held prisoner for 11 years and who's company makes WMD's and guns that can kill Batman (or Batwoman). And yes- her death is said, and I do feel sorry for both her and Mary, but I just don't feel it in the same way I felt Moira's death.


    Man, Kate really didn't accomplish anything in this episode. She didn't catch Alice, Catherine died, Mary hates her, and her father was arrested for a crime he didn't commit. What a way to go into Crisis, huh ?
    Not only didn't she accomplish anything, it can be argued that she indirectly caused Catherine's death and her father's incarceration by not informing the authorities as to where a wanted terrorist was hiding.


    [/QUOTE]I wonder what Jacob took more personally...his wife's murder, or getting framed for it? Or both. But he really didn't seem to beat up about Catherine's death, even if he was in the middle of divorcing her from his perspective, though she was still his wife. Maybe he's just internalizing it. [/QUOTE]

    To be fair, he probably just found out about Catherine's death not long before Kate came to visit him, and that's me assuming the cops told him when he was arrested. It's probably still sinking in.


    [/QUOTE]I get it's setting up Crisis, but I have to imagine how random that Nash Wells scene at the end would be for anyone who only just watches this show.[/QUOTE]

    It surprised the heck out of me.

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    When exactly did mouse replace Jacob?
    I think he replaced Jacob last episode. While Jacob was out of town, Mouse was impersonating him last episode. And then they abducted Jacob before he could get back into town, so Mouse pretended to be him up until the real Jacob was arrested.

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