Batwoman (2019)

[AnakinFlair]

Cass and Stephanie look great. Is that Babs or Kate? Her design is a subpar effort. Random awkwardly flying in painted on clothes with a belt and cape. I'm picturing her thinking to herself "Whatever" in that pose.

I'm pretty sure that is Bab's pre-Crisis outfit

Not directly, no. But so what? Ryan taking Kate's place is automatically going to create connections to every single one of those other characters when they find out. Can't you imagine how Alice is going to react to that news, after she just got into a position to take Kate down? Or how the Crows will respond to there being another Batwoman about? Etc. The exact nature of those reactions is speculative, but they're absolutely going to happen. I don't get this idea that there's just going to be a vacuum as a result of Kate's absence, or that the other characters will just flounder about aimlessly. Just because none of us might be able to see the way forward doesn't mean there isn't a way.

Thanks to Kate locking her up, Alice is ready to kill Kate. She wouldn't blink killing some pretender in the suit; if anything, she'd probably be pissed off that it WASN'T Kate.

The Crows won't care; a vigilante is a vigilante. And the tension of 'Will Jacob realize that it's Kate under the cowl?' is gone.

Luke won't accept some nobody coming into Wayne Tower, getting into the cave, and taking the suit this time. It was different with Kate- at least she was Bruce's cousin. New Girl is just some hobo in a van.

Mary could stick around as the new Leslie Thompkins. She's the only one that would stay around logically.

If someone would take only one thing from all of this it would be that the people running the show should have been replaced not the lead.

I mean, the injuries on set, than the handling of getting a new actress. Same role with a new actress would have been the best way, but no they had to get anything wrong they could.
And I must say any time I read the description of the new role, it is a little too much.

Plenty of people complain about the show runners on these shows (I know people with special hatred for the Arrow show runners), but these idiots really do take the cake. They created a train wreck almost from the word go, and then continued to throw gas on the burning wreckage.

You don't get to complain about things you don't, or won't, watch.

I don't understand how that follows from anything I just said. If you're not going to watch season 2 as you said you weren't, then you don't get to complain about season 2. Isn't that a given? That you have to watch/read/play the thing in question before you make an evaluation?

I won't watch Season 2, and I'll be damn sure complaining about it. This is a show I really wanted to like, based off of characters that I've liked since they were brought into the comics (Kate Kane). And they took that away from me with their inane stupidity.

Couldn't fit personality into the budget, bruv.

Sorry, I don't buy that anymore. Flash gets a new suit once a year. Oliver got several new suits over the years, including alternate reality suits. Supergirl had the longest run with a single suit, and even then she got alternate suits for Crisis on Earth X and for Red Daughter. Superman got an alternate suit for Elseworlds. And hell, Chyler got her own Supergirl suit for one single episode of the series. If they can create a suit that's meant to feature once, then they can create a new Batsuit for Jean Wilder, or whatever they are calling her.

Erased by time waves.

I don't think we'll find out until they start shooting. If they cast someone new, then he was forced to shapeshift. If they don't cast anyone, I guess Dibny's gone.

[Frontier]

Sorry, I don't buy that anymore. Flash gets a new suit once a year. Oliver got several new suits over the years, including alternate reality suits. Supergirl had the longest run with a single suit, and even then she got alternate suits for Crisis on Earth X and for Red Daughter. Superman got an alternate suit for Elseworlds. And hell, Chyler got her own Supergirl suit for one single episode of the series. If they can create a suit that's meant to feature once, then they can create a new Batsuit for Jean Wilder, or whatever they are calling her.

Sometimes they just use recolors or make small alterations to an existing suit, which seems to be the case here.

I don't think we'll find out until they start shooting. If they cast someone new, then he was forced to shapeshift. If they don't cast anyone, I guess Dibny's gone.

They might announce it at the show's FanDome panel.

[Caivu]

Thanks to Kate locking her up, Alice is ready to kill Kate. She wouldn't blink killing some pretender in the suit; if anything, she'd probably be pissed off that it WASN'T Kate.

Yes, that's it precisely. Is that somehow not a good conflict?

The Crows won't care; a vigilante is a vigilante. And the tension of 'Will Jacob realize that it's Kate under the cowl?' is gone.

The Crows should care if a new Batwoman shows up when they haven't captured or even identified the first one. For example: if they don't know the original has gone missing, then to them this is either another copycat (which they would likely seek to discourage), a partner (meaning now there's potentially two vigilantes to deal with), or a protege (which would imply Batwoman intends to function long-term). And that's just a few possibilities.

Jacob not knowing could still be a source of tension for the simple fact that he doesn't know. Him finding out won't have any impact on Kate, at least not immediately, but that knowledge still implicates Luke and Mary. That could even be why Ryan is "allowed in"; because she knows that as well, and could easily make that public.

Luke won't accept some nobody coming into Wayne Tower, getting into the cave, and taking the suit this time. It was different with Kate- at least she was Bruce's cousin. New Girl is just some hobo in a van.

According to the auditions, that's not what happens. Ryan finds the suit after Kate goes missing after what is hinted to be the No Man's Land earthquake. Luke (and presumably Mary) track her down using the suit's GPS.

[Bat-Meal]

Flash gets a new suit once a year. Oliver got several new suits over the years, including alternate reality suits. Supergirl had the longest run with a single suit, and even then she got alternate suits for Crisis on Earth X and for Red Daughter. Superman got an alternate suit for Elseworlds. And hell, Chyler got her own Supergirl suit for one single episode of the series. If they can create a suit that's meant to feature once, then they can create a new Batsuit for Jean Wilder, or whatever they are calling her.

I think her name is Random Wilder or whatever, as in random-replacement who is more 'wild' than Kate, wild as per the description of having an undisciplined fighting style in contrast to Kate's military discipline.

= Random Wilder Person, who is "not Kate Kane", and therefore "likeable" - the implication being that Kate Kane is not likeable (even though many of us do like her). If you like Kate, even though according to the CW she isn't likeable, and Wilder is supposed to be the opposite as per "nothing like Kate Kane", I interpret that to mean that Wilder will not at all be "likeable" for my tastes.

That they're not giving her her own unique suit is lazy and shows IMO that they aren't really invested in the character at all, she's a toss in to keep using the brand, and the red and black suit is all a part of the brand recognition. Making something unique to grow the character requires commitment to building her up and making her stand-out, but just reusing the same look links her in with pre-existing Batwoman media, even though the pre-existing media is Kate.

[Bat-Meal]

How much of her cast is coming back? Having a brand new lead would mean they will need a supporting cast to call their own.

If they were invested in doing it properly they would give her her own supporting cast, but I doubt that is what they are doing.
Compare this OC to other new-ish Batfamily characters such as Duke Thomas and Harper Row.

Unique Mantle: Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no.
Unique Superhero Costume: Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no.
Comes with own supporting cast (usually family members): Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no. Okay, this one is still up for debate, but there haven't been any new (permanent) cast announcements thusfar.
Directly replaces an existing character: Duke = no, Harper = no, Ryan = yes.

The new OC is supposed to be "nothing like Kate Kane", but uses her mantle, has her family as supporting cast, practically has the same suit, will probably use her bike and so on and so forth. Oh, and the showrunners are basically re-doing season 1. New vigilante comes in to replace missing hero, but has to prove themselves capable, huh. Season 1, Batman goes missing, Kate becomes Batwoman and all the struggles that involves. Season 2, Batwoman goes missing and...oh, I see.

So I'm going to assume that Kate found Bruce, and whatever he's been up to is more fun than being in the Arrowverse, so Kate joined him.

[Frontier]

Yes, that's it precisely. Is that somehow not a good conflict?

I can't see it being as emotionally investing as Kate and Alice's relationship was.

The Crows should care if a new Batwoman shows up when they haven't captured or even identified the first one. For example: if they don't know the original has gone missing, then to them this is either another copycat (which they would likely seek to discourage), a partner (meaning now there's potentially two vigilantes to deal with), or a protege (which would imply Batwoman intends to function long-term). And that's just a few possibilities.

Jacob not knowing could still be a source of tension for the simple fact that he doesn't know. Him finding out won't have any impact on Kate, at least not immediately, but that knowledge still implicates Luke and Mary. That could even be why Ryan is "allowed in"; because she knows that as well, and could easily make that public..

But, again, there's that lack of emotional investment. Even when Jacob finds out Kate was Batwoman it's going to be secondhand and not as big of a deal as it would've been when Kate was still Batwoman.

[The Darknight Detective]

I can't see it being as emotionally investing as Kate and Alice's relationship was.

Agreed, Frontier. It's impossible for it be be narly as emotionally investing, regardless of how well written it may be.

[AnakinFlair]

Yes, that's it precisely. Is that somehow not a good conflict?

The Crows should care if a new Batwoman shows up when they haven't captured or even identified the first one. For example: if they don't know the original has gone missing, then to them this is either another copycat (which they would likely seek to discourage), a partner (meaning now there's potentially two vigilantes to deal with), or a protege (which would imply Batwoman intends to function long-term). And that's just a few possibilities.

Jacob not knowing could still be a source of tension for the simple fact that he doesn't know. Him finding out won't have any impact on Kate, at least not immediately, but that knowledge still implicates Luke and Mary. That could even be why Ryan is "allowed in"; because she knows that as well, and could easily make that public.

According to the auditions, that's not what happens. Ryan finds the suit after Kate goes missing after what is hinted to be the No Man's Land earthquake. Luke (and presumably Mary) track her down using the suit's GPS.

No, it's not. It a villain of the week conflict, on par with say The Count on Arrow.

As for the Crows, she's wearing the same suit. If they don't get close enough to see it's a black woman in the cowl (or even try to play it that they don't even notice the skin color), then to them it's still the same Batwoman. As for Jacob, the tension there lay in the fact that it was his DAUGHTER under the cowl, and how would he react if he found that out. Why should he care if it's some random person in the cape past the fact that it's a vigilante?

As for your third point, I'll answer it below.

If they were invested in doing it properly they would give her her own supporting cast, but I doubt that is what they are doing.
Compare this OC to other new-ish Batfamily characters such as Duke Thomas and Harper Row.

Unique Mantle: Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no.
Unique Superhero Costume: Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no.
Comes with own supporting cast (usually family members): Duke = yes, Harper = yes, Ryan = no. Okay, this one is still up for debate, but there haven't been any new (permanent) cast announcements thusfar.
Directly replaces an existing character: Duke = no, Harper = no, Ryan = yes.

The new OC is supposed to be "nothing like Kate Kane", but uses her mantle, has her family as supporting cast, practically has the same suit, will probably use her bike and so on and so forth. Oh, and the showrunners are basically re-doing season 1. New vigilante comes in to replace missing hero, but has to prove themselves capable, huh. Season 1, Batman goes missing, Kate becomes Batwoman and all the struggles that involves. Season 2, Batwoman goes missing and...oh, I see.

So I'm going to assume that Kate found Bruce, and whatever he's been up to is more fun than being in the Arrowverse, so Kate joined him.

First, I love Random Wilder. It's much more memorable than whatever they are calling her.

Second, right here you gave the perfect solution for this whole problem- HARPER ROW.

If it's true that they will adapt No Man's Land and New Girl finds the suit, why couldn't they have made the new character Harper Row? Right there you have a character that has been established in the comics, is a lesbian, and already has some following behind her. If it had been Harper finding the suit after Kate went missing, and the season was about her both growing into the roll and hunting down Kate, I think I could have gotten behind that. Even cast the same actress they did and make Harper black! But by not using an established character, by creating someone completely new and giving her the character description they gave her which essentially shat on both the character of Kate Kane and the actress that played her, they completely turned me off of this show. It both screams of petty vindictiveness and shows that the show runners hold no reverence for the source material.

[Caivu]

No, it's not. It a villain of the week conflict, on par with say The Count on Arrow.

You really don't see how this could easily turn into an ongoing grudge between Ryan and Alice? From Alice's perspective, it's not unreasonable that she'd see Ryan as stealing Kate from her.

As for the Crows, she's wearing the same suit. If they don't get close enough to see it's a black woman in the cowl (or even try to play it that they don't even notice the skin color), then to them it's still the same Batwoman.

They'd eventually figure it out, whether by direct observation or recordings, and all those things I mentioned would likely come into play. They'd at least know something was up.

As for Jacob, the tension there lay in the fact that it was his DAUGHTER under the cowl, and how would he react if he found that out. Why should he care if it's some random person in the cape past the fact that it's a vigilante?

Jacob might not care who it is, but him knowing puts Luke and Mary in jeopardy. At the very least, he'd be one step closer to figuring out their involvement, and there's still plenty of tension in that. Besides, it's not like he can't still learn that Kate was Batwoman and have to deal with that.

If it's true that they will adapt No Man's Land and New Girl finds the suit, why couldn't they have made the new character Harper Row?

Lack of rights? Because Harper's a teenager? Because she's similar-ish to Parker? It could be lots of things.

It both screams of petty vindictiveness and shows that the show runners hold no reverence for the source material.

Okay, this was just funny, since your version of Harper also plays fast and loose with the source.

[AnakinFlair]

Okay, this was just funny, since your version of Harper also plays fast and loose with the source.

I am not unaware of the irony, especially since I've been against color-blind casting in the past. But in this case, I think it could have worked and mitigated a lot of the outrage that people like me feel.

[Bat-Meal]

Second, right here you gave the perfect solution for this whole problem- HARPER ROW.

If it's true that they will adapt No Man's Land and New Girl finds the suit, why couldn't they have made the new character Harper Row? Right there you have a character that has been established in the comics, is a lesbian, and already has some following behind her. If it had been Harper finding the suit after Kate went missing, and the season was about her both growing into the roll and hunting down Kate, I think I could have gotten behind that. Even cast the same actress they did and make Harper black! But by not using an established character, by creating someone completely new and giving her the character description they gave her which essentially shat on both the character of Kate Kane and the actress that played her, they completely turned me off of this show. It both screams of petty vindictiveness and shows that the show runners hold no reverence for the source material.

Agreed, Harper Row could have worked. So would Cassandra Cain, or Stephanie Brown, and all of them would have been a better option than the OC IMO.
No Man's Land would have had to swap Babs as Oracle handing the mantle of Batgirl to Cass for Kate handing the Batwoman mantle to Harper. It could still have been a bit tricky without the original actress around, without a recast of Kate - in which case just keep Kate as the lead. Huh, this thing goes in circles and keeps going back to why didn't they just recast Kate.

[Digifiend]

The show is switching to the comic's logo.

[Frontier]

The show is switching to the comic's logo.

Ironically after they've written out the comic version of Batwoman.

Honestly their descriptions of Ryan Wilder in FanDome just sound like how they described Kate originally, just replace Bruce with Kate. Also I get why they're excited about a black woman being Batwoman but considering we only had a white Batwoman for one season it doesn't seem as notable as they're making it sound.

[AnakinFlair]

Ironically after they've written out the comic version of Batwoman.

Honestly their descriptions of Ryan Wilder in FanDome just sound like how they described Kate originally, just replace Bruce with Kate. Also I get why they're excited about a black woman being Batwoman but considering we only had a white Batwoman for one season it doesn't seem as notable as they're making it sound.

I get that it's a big deal that a black woman is in the suit, but they make it sound like she's the first black female superhero on the CW, and I keep thinking "You know, there are TWO black female superheroes on Black Lightning, and one of them is a Lesbian."

I really feel like they don't support that show. You can't even get Season 2 on DVD or Blu-Ray, only digitally.

[Bat-Meal]

Ironically after they've written out the comic version of Batwoman.

Honestly their descriptions of Ryan Wilder in FanDome just sound like how they described Kate originally, just replace Bruce with Kate. Also I get why they're excited about a black woman being Batwoman but considering we only had a white Batwoman for one season it doesn't seem as notable as they're making it sound.

Seems they have 1 selling point to try to gain traction, and so they are not going to shut-up about it.

But their OC, by being a replacement character, cannot gain the same kind of traction or significance as characters such as Black Panther and Sister Knight - just in the same way that Kate herself cannot gain the same traction as Batman because she is a legacy character. The exception would be characters that outshone the original, but this is rare, and when they do gain wider media attention it is at the complete deletion (outside of comics) of the original, such Capatin Marvel and to a smaller extent Batwing. In this case it is not possible because Kate already existed in the first season, and is also said to have inspired Wilder, as such Wilder in this series literally cannot exists without Kate having been there first. Hence she will always be the replacement.