Batwoman (2019)

[Caivu]

Kayla Ewell from The Vampire Diaries cast as Nocturna.

[Anarchist]

As far as the fighting choreography discussion goes, well, in it's series finale Arrow really set a new record for "Awesome!"


I'm sorry, but Batwoman hasn't even come close to this yet.
It might eventually, but so far, nope.

[Jackalope89]

Kayla Ewell from The Vampire Diaries cast as Nocturna.

As the vampiric one? That's kind of disappointing. Was hoping for the one more along the lines of wanting to adopt Jason Todd, personally.

[Caivu]

I'm sorry, but Batwoman hasn't even come close to this yet.

That was supposed to be a good example? In that case, I'm glad Batwoman's nowhere near there.

Seriously though, what's supposed to be so much better about that scene? It's just Oliver effortlessly running through dudes (except for when he makes a miraculous escape after getting dogpiled).

As the vampiric one? That's kind of disappointing. Was hoping for the one more along the lines of wanting to adopt Jason Todd, personally.

Wasn't she always a vampire? That's the one associated with Batwoman anyway.

[Anarchist]

The choreography, the camera work (notice how there are almost no visible cuts in such a long sequence), the speed, the "impact" of the stunts etc

[Bat-Meal]

I'm not caught-up with all the latest episodes, but with regards to choreography I will say this - they need to leave some room for growth, or it could stagnate. If Batwoman starts too capable, how do they show growth in ability in later seasons? Batwoman is just starting out, Arrow has been active for years, he should be more capable than her at this stage. Rookie compared to Veteran.

If the fights get better over time it serves storytelling as well as becomes more exciting for viewers, but if it's constantly top-notch it becomes normalized and so not exciting. That's my musings on it for now anyway.

[Caivu]

The choreography, the camera work (notice how there are almost no visible cuts in such a long sequence), the speed, the "impact" of the stunts etc

Almost no visible cuts? There's at least 29 in that entire scene. I counted 10 up to the point he climbed the ladder to get tackled.

Everything else looks basically the same to me. What's the story being told here? Watching this in isolation, I have no idea what Oliver's goal is or what exactly he's trying to do. The fight isn't telling a story.

[beatboks]

I still don't quite understand the logic of these boycotts.

I'd say its to keep characters available for upcoming projects. When a production company licenses a character it blocks others from using the same. Its why Spidey in MCU has different uniform etc to sony. Its why MJ in in the MCU is michelle not mary

With a Batman movie in the works I would assume there is an expectation to use Jim Gordan. Maybe there not completely certain which studio will make that movie yet. I mean they could use all the cameos in crisis because while they were made by different production companies they all were the property of WB television

Until everyrhing DC or everything Marvel no matter the medium are made by the same production company its what we're stuck with.

[Jackalope89]

That was supposed to be a good example? In that case, I'm glad Batwoman's nowhere near there.

Seriously though, what's supposed to be so much better about that scene? It's just Oliver effortlessly running through dudes (except for when he makes a miraculous escape after getting dogpiled).



Wasn't she always a vampire? That's the one associated with Batwoman anyway.

Originally? No. Way back when, she was a regular human, but took a liking to Jason in a motherly way, and had a thing with Bruce.

[Anarchist]

Action scenes are just that - action scenes. Didn't know since when it was mandatory that they are "telling a story" or have to convey the context they are taking place in (and I don't really think Batwoman does that either).

They just have to be shot well, which this one certainly is.

[Caivu]

Action scenes are just that - action scenes. Didn't know since when it was mandatory that they are "telling a story" or have to convey the context they are taking place in (and I don't really think Batwoman does that either).

They just have to be shot well, which this one certainly is.

All scenes are miniature stories. Ideally, any scene should be watchable in isolation, without any other context, and a viewer should be able to have at least a general idea of what's going on, what each character's goal is, etc.

Same for fight scenes. Compare that Arrow scene to the construction site fight from Batwoman's pilot:



Automatically better, because this time there's a concrete goal, even in isolation: defeat Alice and rescue Sophie before Sophie falls. And Kate isn't having an easy time of it. Stakes, y'know? That Arrow scene doesn't have either, at least from that clip.

In context, there's even more happening: Kate neutralizing Alice's detonator, and Alice throwing the knife that leads to the reveal. There's more going on than just a fight.

I don't care how well-choreographed or well-shot a fight scene (or any scene) is if it's just eye candy. It needs to do something, not just be pretty.

[j9ac9k]

I totally agree that good fight scenes should be more than perfunctory set-pieces and when good storytelling is used, they move the story and contain real drama with personal stakes, otherwise it's "mindless action." That said, that fight scene from Arrow in particular had no reason other than as a way for the stunt team to do one more big fight as a farewell to the audience since it was the final episode. So in that sense, it did its job.

[Frontier]

Kayla Ewell from The Vampire Diaries cast as Nocturna.

Keeping it in the CW family and on-theme .

I'm not caught-up with all the latest episodes, but with regards to choreography I will say this - they need to leave some room for growth, or it could stagnate. If Batwoman starts too capable, how do they show growth in ability in later seasons? Batwoman is just starting out, Arrow has been active for years, he should be more capable than her at this stage. Rookie compared to Veteran.

If the fights get better over time it serves storytelling as well as becomes more exciting for viewers, but if it's constantly top-notch it becomes normalized and so not exciting. That's my musings on it for now anyway.

Yeah, I'd put Kate right now at about Flashback Year 3 or 4 Oliver.

Originally? No. Way back when, she was a regular human, but took a liking to Jason in a motherly way, and had a thing with Bruce.

She also had a hot air balloon gimmick, if I recall correctly.

All scenes are miniature stories. Ideally, any scene should be watchable in isolation, without any other context, and a viewer should be able to have at least a general idea of what's going on, what each character's goal is, etc.

Same for fight scenes. Compare that Arrow scene to the construction site fight from Batwoman's pilot:



Automatically better, because this time there's a concrete goal, even in isolation: defeat Alice and rescue Sophie before Sophie falls. And Kate isn't having an easy time of it. Stakes, y'know? That Arrow scene doesn't have either, at least from that clip.

In context, there's even more happening: Kate neutralizing Alice's detonator, and Alice throwing the knife that leads to the reveal. There's more going on than just a fight.

Admittedly this is probably one of the better fight scenes on the show. The only ones comparable I'd put down is...maybe the Magpie and Executioner fights? I'd have to re-watch them.

[Bat-Meal]

Admittedly this is probably one of the better fight scenes on the show.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the accident. In the pilot the actress was doing most of her own stunts, now she doesn't, according to an interview I read a while back. Means they would have to do more cuts to swap between the stunt-double and lead-actress, I'm supposing. Not that I'm complaining: stunt-doubles exist for a very good reason.

[lowfyr]

Wasn't she always a vampire? That's the one associated with Batwoman anyway.

No, the first Nocturna showed up in the 80s shortly before the Crisis and she was definitley no vampire. She was more the thief with an exotic look and got into a love Triangel with Batman and Catwoman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturna_(DC_Comics)

And rereading the article there seems to be another one. And no mentioning of the one showing up in Batwoman^^