Cyclops Appreciation

[Hizashi]

On the AvX front, and hopefully this is the last thing I say on the subject for a while, I want to reiterate that Marvel didn’t do a good job, in my opinion, of making the Avengers the heroes. If Cap intended to work with Scott, he wouldn’t have had a sneak attack at the ready; Scott didn’t acquire the Phoenix force, it was thrown onto him, and as stated by others, talking him down wasn’t actually attempted; I can see the narrative that Scott needed for his species to be given a second chance, but with Extinction imminent, I don’t see his actions as outright villainous.

[Ulfhammer]

By that point, Cap was choosing a lesser evil. Hope had no desire to rule the world as the P5 were trying to do. She was on board with ending the conflict and the threat posed by the Phoenix Force.

Over the weekend, I went back through AvX, crossovers and all, to see if, with the benefit of time and hindsight, Scott's case is stronger. It's not. On the contrary, it's even weaker. He and the Extinction Team were unquestionably the bad guys. IMO, there were three points where Scott and co. crossed the line, precipitating the subsequent chain of events:

1) When Cap shows up with the Heli-Carrier in AvX #1, Scott could have (and pre-Morrison Scott would have) calmly acknowledged Cap's, the Avengers', SHIELD's, and the government's concerns, and offered a compromise. Instead of Cap taking Hope into custody, Scott could've invited the Avengers onto Utopia and to work together to face the coming crisis with the Phoenix. But, he didn't. Instead, Scott acted like a hot-headed, self-righteous jackass, setting off the conflict.

Let's imagine for a moment that a technologically advanced alien craft crashlanded in the continental United States in the middle of a massive plague outbreak. The citizens of the US were winnowed down to a tiny fragment of what they had been and all evidence pointed to the US being completely depopulated within one generation. Now imagine that US scientist found technology onboard this space craft that could both cure the plague and potentially end the world (some kind of superweapon). News of this discovery gets out to other world leaders. Now imagine your the POTUS and you've just been informed that Russia has turned up off of the US coastline with a massive invasion force capable of threatening the sovernty of the US. Their message is simple. Give us the alien craft or we will take it from you by force.

In that context you're suggesting you'd just hand over that alien craft? And your compromise would be to accept an invasion force on US soil? Have no illusions, SHIELD is a military organization and so are the Avengers. Cap showing up with a helicarrier behind him is saber rattling of the highest order. If Cap doesn't show up with his miltary force, Hope stays on Utopia, get the PF and all is well -- AvX over. Why aren't you recommending that?

2) After acquiring the Phoenix Force, Scott and the P5 started unilaterally disarming the rest of the world. In doing so, they asserted authority over everyone else by pure dint of their power--might makes right. They imposed their vision on everyone else by force. Well-intentioned dictatorship--even benevolent dictatorship--is still dictatorship.

The first thing Hope did when she got the PF was to unilaterally change the world. There was no consultation with world powers or governments to debate whether mutant births should continue, which is an extremely divisive subject among humans.

3) Scott killing Xavier in the midst of what was truly a cosmically powered temper tantrum.

Compare this to the approach Scott used to talk down Dark Phoenix in the DPS. I can't recall the specific issue but it was working and Jean was re-asserting control until Charles hit her with a psi bolt.

The point is that what worked for Scott with Jean, an appeal to her heart and her love for her teammates, wasn't attempted by Charles because he's a dick. Who know's if it would have worked but Chuck should have learned a lesson from the first time around. He didn't even try. He treated Scott like a petulant child instead.[/QUOTE]

Throughout the event, Scott would not negotiate. Ever. At all. When confronted, he just kept doubling down. This is not the behavior of a righteous, level-headed, responsible person; it's the behavior of a self-righteous, delusional zealot. And, by that's point, that's what Scott was.

Why should he have negotiated? It was a mutant matter, to solve a mutant problem, by mutants, for mutants. SHIELD and the Avengers have a long history of ignoring mutant issues. But now all the sudden they have the right to be involved? If they wanted to be involved in the safety and security of mutants in the context of humanity at large, they should have started before it became a matter of self interest.

All that said, what really jumped out at me about AvX this time was the subtext that, even before the conflict with the Avengers started, Cyclops was well and truly a broken man. Losing Jean again had destroyed him inside, and all he had left to hang onto was his faith in Hope being the mutant messiah. That's what led him down the path to being a fanatical zealot for whom the ends justified the means. On some level, through Hope and by uniting her with the Phoenix and restarting the X-gene, he thought he could get Jean back. Or, at least redeem her loss (and his) and give it some meaning.

It's all right there in a bit in Uncanny X-Men vol. 2 #12:
An instant later, at an abandoned Hellfire Club safe house, Magik teleports herself and the Sub-Mariner in. Colossus, the White Queen and Cyclops are waiting, and Cyclops announces that the goose chase is over, for Hope split her signal, but now they know her real destination. ‘The girl shows wisdom’ Namor remarks, before asking where she is. ‘The moon’ Scott reveals. ‘The Phoenix. The moon. Familiar…’ Colossus remarks. Magik opens a portal, and as the five X-Men enter, Cyclops replies that he knows, and that it scares him. ‘I don’t like the echoes, either. But you know what? It’s a second chance’ he states. And as the Phoenix Force hovers over the moon, Cyclops declares ‘This time we write a happy ending’.

Scott's actions throughout the event--all the posturing, all the violence, all the rage--were ultimately driven by his grief.

IMO, the whole thing should've ended with Hope finally defeating Scott by sending him to the White Hot Room to be with Jean in exchange for surrendering the Phoenix Force. Plot-wise, it would've concluded the event more definitively and tied off Scott's tragic character arc from Morrison onward in a thematically conclusive way. It would've also provided a cleaner break for the X-Men going forward than all the RightClops malarkey that followed.

Scott has been broken on and off since the 80's and desperate since M-Day. Genocide and a decades long campaign of human terrorism against mutants before that will do that to you. What you are asking Scott to accept is akin to the German goverment asking Isreal to allow a small group of skilled German operatives access to their country in 1948 to monitor their military buildup. It was just never going to happen. Sorry.

And as a general rule, anytime you evaluate a conflict and think one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong, you're not being objective or rational.

[Ulfhammer]

There were no charges, tho.

Also, I'd be perfectly happy if we just banned any AvX discussions in this thread. It's downright annoying having other fanbases constantly coming in here and starting up the same stupid argument over and over and OVER again just to derail us.

That's never going to happen. It's fine. Let people say what they need to say. It's our choice to respond or not.

[Ulfhammer]

On the AvX front, and hopefully this is the last thing I say on the subject for a while, I want to reiterate that Marvel didn’t do a good job, in my opinion, of making the Avengers the heroes. If Cap intended to work with Scott, he wouldn’t have had a sneak attack at the ready; Scott didn’t acquire the Phoenix force, it was thrown onto him, and as stated by others, talking him down wasn’t actually attempted; I can see the narrative that Scott needed for his species to be given a second chance, but with Extinction imminent, I don’t see his actions as outright villainous.

Agreed. I think if Cap had simply left the PF to the mutants AvX would have never happened.

[Ulfhammer]

On AvX discussion again, really?

Anyways, guys what'd you think if Tyke became the rebel teen and Cyclops became the boy scout once again? Kind of like a personality switcheroo, Tyke takes the champions to madripoor and they beat the crap out of magneto an turn him to the government, in exchange they get a bounty of 100m dollars and a free pass to do whatever they want as vigilantes, and Tyke asks for his older self charges to be removed.

Tyke is so terrified of going dark side I don't think he'd ever consider this for a second. Remember that he's basically silver age Scott. That's as straight laced as a boy can come. Throw Jeen into the mix and Tyke has literally zero motivation to be a bad boy.

[CuteClops]

What I like most about RightClops, I suppose, is that he's no longer the idiot who stay with an adulterous wife.

Also, he's the one who defies the system, he's the one who fighting the fascism of Captain America, the Avengers and Shield.

Whoever doesn't kneel before Cap is treated as a potential terrorist, and is murdered.

Even the genocidal characters, who are identifying as “allies”, are treated as heroes.

That's why RightClops needs to come back and stay with Emma. They are the perfect couple.

[CuteClops]

There were no charges, tho.

Also, I'd be perfectly happy if we just banned any AvX discussions in this thread. It's downright annoying having other fanbases constantly coming in here and starting up the same stupid argument over and over and OVER again just to derail us.

Give up, buddy, I already tried; only to be ignored, ridiculed and banished. That's it.

[FUBAR007]

Also, I'd be perfectly happy if we just banned any AvX discussions in this thread. It's downright annoying having other fanbases constantly coming in here and starting up the same stupid argument over and over and OVER again just to derail us.

I am an X-Men fan. I'm even a Cyclops fan (just not of his post-Morrison incarnation). And, I've been both for over 25 years. I've been discussing them online for almost as long.

[FUBAR007]

In that context you're suggesting you'd just hand over that alien craft?

Your analogy doesn't hold. Utopia sat off the coast of San Francisco, and many of its inhabitants--including its leader--were U.S. citizens. Also, the Phoenix was sentient, had a history of being extremely dangerous, and had been obliterating entire worlds and their populations left and right.

And your compromise would be to accept an invasion force on US soil? Have no illusions, SHIELD is a military organization and so are the Avengers. Cap showing up with a helicarrier behind him is saber rattling of the highest order. If Cap doesn't show up with his miltary force, Hope stays on Utopia, get the PF and all is well -- AvX over. Why aren't you recommending that?

Why should he have negotiated? It was a mutant matter, to solve a mutant problem, by mutants, for mutants. SHIELD and the Avengers have a long history of ignoring mutant issues. But now all the sudden they have the right to be involved? If they wanted to be involved in the safety and security of mutants in the context of humanity at large, they should have started before it became a matter of self interest.

Because Utopia--and mutants in general--didn't exist in a vacuum. The Phoenix's arrival wasn't going to just affect mutants; it was going to effect the entire sentient population of Earth. And, because Cap's actions were prudent based on the circumstances and the intelligence on the Phoenix he had at the time. It was wiping out entire worlds, doing repeatedly what Dark Phoenix did to the D'Bari once.

Had Cap and the Avengers simply stormed the island without warning and any attempt at communication, or had Scott tried to be reasonable and Cap ignored/rebuffed him, I'd see your argument.

The first thing Hope did when she got the PF was to unilaterally change the world. There was no consultation with world powers or governments to debate whether mutant births should continue, which is an extremely divisive subject among humans.

Hope didn't restart the X-gene. She just said "no more Phoenix." The restart of the X-gene was either a side effect of that or the last action of the Phoenix Force before it was dispelled.

Compare this to the approach Scott used to talk down Dark Phoenix in the DPS. I can't recall the specific issue but it was working and Jean was re-asserting control until Charles hit her with a psi bolt.

The point is that what worked for Scott with Jean, an appeal to her heart and her love for her teammates, wasn't attempted by Charles because he's a dick. Who know's if it would have worked but Chuck should have learned a lesson from the first time around. He didn't even try. He treated Scott like a petulant child instead.

See Avengers vs. X-Men #6. Xavier raised his concerns peacefully. Scott blew him off.

Scott has been broken on and off since the 80's and desperate since M-Day. Genocide and a decades long campaign of human terrorism against mutants before that will do that to you. What you are asking Scott to accept is akin to the German goverment asking Isreal to allow a small group of skilled German operatives access to their country in 1948 to monitor their military buildup.

The Avengers hadn't been conducting anti-mutant terrorism. M-Day wasn't orchestrated by the UN, the U.S. government, or some representative coalition of human countries, but by Dr. Doom using Scarlet Witch as a weapon.

IMO, the biggest plot hole in the whole event was Rachel not stepping in or being recruited to take back the Phoenix and head out into deep space to deal with it.

[lurkerforyears]

I am an X-Men fan. I'm even a Cyclops fan (just not of his post-Morrison incarnation). And, I've been both for over 25 years. I've been discussing them online for almost as long.

What crime had Hope commited that would allow the Avengers to take her away (are the Avengers American Cops?)?
How would it help for her to be in a fortress or in a bunker somewhere if the Phoenix is coming?
Were they planning on sending her to another dimension so the Phoenix wouldnt find her? What if that makes the Phoenix mad and it destroys earth?
Were they planning on killing her as a last resort?

if they had agreed to go to space to the Phoenix would find Hope well before planet Earth, does that mean the Phoenix wouldnt have been attacked by the Avengers, witch a Tony Stark machine, that caused the Phoenix to split and accidentally possess the first mutants it found?

In my opinions the Avengers were the heroes of the story from the Phoenix 5 on, but the villains before the Phoenix 5. And they were responsible for the Phoenix 5 to happen.

[wano]

Guys why not make a copypasta txt for standarized responses to AvX circlejerk? I'm tired of discussing that story and I have no idea why people come and push it,

or can we just say that CYclops is the villain and we still love him despite of that... I have no problem calling cyclops a villain and saying he's right, and villains play by other rules so all his actions are justified since he's a villain

[FUBAR007]

Guys why not make a copypasta txt for standarized responses to AvX circlejerk? I'm tired of discussing that story and I have no idea why people come and push it,

Feel free to add me to your Ignore List. Alternatively, if you think you've got a legitimate case, you can request that the mods ban me.

You can also scroll past any posts that you don't like and only respond to those that you do.

[Cyke]

Guys why not make a copypasta txt for standarized responses to AvX circlejerk? I'm tired of discussing that story and I have no idea why people come and push it,

or can we just say that CYclops is the villain and we still love him despite of that... I have no problem calling cyclops a villain and saying he's right, and villains play by other rules so all his actions are justified since he's a villain

Yeah no. Who are you and which Captain America sent you?

[wano]

Feel free to add me to your Ignore List. Alternatively, if you think you've got a legitimate case, you can request that the mods ban me.

You can also scroll past any posts that you don't like and only respond to those that you do.

Yeah I can't contemplate why somebody would want to discuss something that has been discussed ad nauseam knowing you'll never change your opinion or the opinions of anybody else.

Yeah no. Who are you and which Captain America sent you?

Captain hydra sent me, hail hydra! Yeah just kidding but the villain title gives you lot more room to operate, I mean, look at magneto. He's chilling in madripoor, the X men always team up with him, the o5 love him, he can go on murder rampage without consequences, and he hasn't been to any jail in years. I'd drop my superhero title faster than you can say cyclops if I got the benefits of being a villain like magneto

[FUBAR007]

What crime had Hope commited that would allow the Avengers to take her away (are the Avengers American Cops?)?

Cap's intent was to take her into protective custody, not arrest her for a crime.

How would it help for her to be in a fortress or in a bunker somewhere if the Phoenix is coming?

Given the power of the Phoenix, it wouldn't. Cap hadn't figured that out yet, though.

Were they planning on sending her to another dimension so the Phoenix wouldnt find her?

Not originally, no. That idea came up later when Iron Fist got involved and K'un-L'un became an option.

What if that makes the Phoenix mad and it destroys earth?

As far as the Avengers knew, the Phoenix was already mad and, based on what it had been doing to other planets, was going to destroy Earth anyway.

Were they planning on killing her as a last resort?

Logan was. I didn't get the impression Cap wanted to.

if they had agreed to go to space to the Phoenix would find Hope well before planet Earth, does that mean the Phoenix wouldnt have been attacked by the Avengers, witch a Tony Stark machine, that caused the Phoenix to split and accidentally possess the first mutants it found?

Good question.

In my opinions the Avengers were the heroes of the story from the Phoenix 5 on, but the villains before the Phoenix 5. And they were responsible for the Phoenix 5 to happen.

Accidentally, yes. Iron Man admits as much later on.