Cyclops Appreciation

[FUBAR007]

Who does Nathan love more? Jean or Maddy? I mean, Jean raised him so it's like she's his mother but Maddy gave him life and she's his real mother.

Jean.

Writers James Robinson and Joe Pruett covered this ground back in the late 90s. See Cable vol. 1 #44 and #76. Nathan is rather cold toward Madelyne.

[Hizashi]

Basilisk would be a perfect code name for a period where he could control his powers.

[SpiderClops]

Basilisk would be a perfect code name for a period where he could control his powers.

Basilisks can control if they want to kill or not with a glance? I am in need of some mythology lessons, it seems.

[FUBAR007]

It would have been nice if adult Scott could have developed friendships with people like Cap, Fury or Maria Hill. Other leaders! Anyway, everytime they came into contact with Scott they were basically the worst versions of themselves so that was never going to happen.

He had a developing friendship with Cap at one point. See Uncanny X-Men: The Heroic Age #1. Which is yet another reason AvX felt so nonsensical and contrived.

IMO, a properly written dynamic between Steve and Scott would range from a minimum of mutual professional respect to fraternal brothers-in-arms.

If memory serves, Maria Hill found herself attracted to Scott. Cue fanfic in 3...2...

[FUBAR007]

I agree that calling the guy an idiot is unwarranted. My problem is his opinion is uninformed. Scott being possessive is a claim that can actually be tested in canon. Based on both his previous actions, Jean's and other member's of the X-Men towards their significant others, labeling Scott as possessive can't be effectively defended, especially within the context of his relationship with Jean. As a creator writing new canon himself, Taylor should be an authority on these matters, or at the very least his editor should be. The fact that he seems to believe this tells me he's uninformed and writing responses to readers based more on his perceptions than facts, or perhaps spinning a narrative for Jean that more effectively fits with the empowerment stories he's writing.

Secondly, and just as importantly, making a statement like this, even if it was defensible, adds nothing positive to the discussion and should have been clearly understood as inflammatory. You characterized it as unprofessional and I agree.

My interpretation of Taylor's comment was that he was referring to Scott and Logan's rivalry over Jean. These days in progressive circles, such a thing is considered deeply sexist, reducing the woman in question to an object and so stripping her of autonomy. Opposing that dovetails thematically with Jean's character arc in Red of taking the initiative, becoming a leader in her own right, and developing her own vision for mutantkind. In other words, it's less about criticizing Scott than promoting Jean.

However, Taylor's comments do suggest to me that he's yet another writer who's unfamiliar with 90s X-Men and what the dynamic of Scott and Jean's marriage was actually like. Scott was not the one in charge.

[Ulfhammer]

My interpretation of Taylor's comment was that he was referring to Scott and Logan's rivalry over Jean. These days in progressive circles, such a thing is considered deeply sexist, reducing the woman in question to an object and so stripping her of autonomy. Opposing that dovetails thematically with Jean's character arc in Red of taking the initiative, becoming a leader in her own right, and developing her own vision for mutantkind. In other words, it's less about criticizing Scott than promoting Jean.

However, Taylor's comments do suggest to me that he's yet another writer who's unfamiliar with 90s X-Men and what the dynamic of Scott and Jean's marriage was actually like. Scott was not the one in charge.

I'd like to see an actual example of Jean's agency being eliminated by the triangle when it did come up. Jean didn't really tolerate this kind of behavior. Exhibit 1 - Logan's first time seeing Jean post DPS (Right after the Mutant Massacre IIRC). You know how that went. Jean wasn't putting up with this from either of them. There aren't actually many examples of this kind of behavior but when it did occur, she never really put up with it. The agency loss happens how? I don't see it.

Secondly, Inferno could be interpreted as Jean and Maddie fighting over Scott. The situations aren't identical but the basic impetus of their conflict was Scott, even if Maddie wasn't trying to get him back by the end.

In any event, Taylor certainly could have promoted Jean without resorting to these kinds of tactics. What it suggests to me is that he sees Red as a book that can free Jean's character from the fetters of these overzelous men and truly "empower" her. It's a classic case of creating a problem that never existed so you can solve it and look, I don't know, progressive I guess? I just strikes me as incomprehensible that anyone would think of Jean as a character that has struggled to escape the shadow of Scott, or Logan for that matter. Reading Morrison is enough to dissipate that illusion, let alone the 90's or 80's for that matter.

[Hizashi]

Basilisks can control if they want to kill or not with a glance? I am in need of some mythology lessons, it seems.

I don’t think they can, but then again, Scott doesn’t really have only one-eye, right? Let’s call it a bit of creative freedom.

And yes, I know the visor gives his silhouette the Cyclops imagery. I dunno, so many other characters get upgrades, is it too much to ask for a temporary boost or for Cyke’s powers to be written properly?

[Ulfhammer]

IMO, a properly written dynamic between Steve and Scott would range from a minimum of mutual professional respect to fraternal brothers-in-arms.

There's no good reason why it shouldn't have been that way. No reason other than the Avengers turning a blind eye to decades of mutant abuse. That can tend to cause a rift. Emma pointed this out brilliantly when the Avengers asked for the X-Men support of the SHRA.

If memory serves, Maria Hill found herself attracted to Scott. Cue fanfic in 3...2...

As I recall Hill was mortified that she was attracted to someone she hated so deeply. Not a great basis for a friendship.

[FUBAR007]

I'd like to see an actual example of Jean's agency being eliminated by the triangle when it did come up. Jean didn't really tolerate this kind of behavior. Exhibit 1 - Logan's first time seeing Jean post DPS (Right after the Mutant Massacre IIRC). You know how that went. Jean wasn't putting up with this from either of them. There aren't actually many examples of this kind of behavior but when it did occur, she never really put up with it. The agency loss happens how? I don't see it.

I never said it was an accurate point of view.

Secondly, Inferno could be interpreted as Jean and Maddie fighting over Scott.

There's also Jean's confrontation with Psylocke in X-Men vol. 2 #20 over her advances toward Scott. And her confrontation with Emma in New X-Men.

In any event, Taylor certainly could have promoted Jean without resorting to these kinds of tactics. What it suggests to me is that he sees Red as a book that can free Jean's character from the fetters of these overzelous men and truly "empower" her.

That's more or less my read of it.

[FUBAR007]

There's no good reason why it shouldn't have been that way. No reason other than the Avengers turning a blind eye to decades of mutant abuse. That can tend to cause a rift. Emma pointed this out brilliantly when the Avengers asked for the X-Men support of the SHRA.

Nope. Sorry. Not buying it.

The central conflict of AvX was contrived bullshit. Didn't make sense given the teams' histories. Scott, Cap, and most of the key cast were all portrayed massively out of character to force the story.

Had Cap and Scott been written in-character, there would've been no story.

As I recall Hill was mortified that she was attracted to someone she hated so deeply. Not a great basis for a friendship.

True, but it could've formed the basis for some fantastic hatesex.

[Ulfhammer]

I never said it was an accurate point of view.



There's also Jean's confrontation with Psylocke in X-Men vol. 2 #20 over her advances toward Scott. And her confrontation with Emma in New X-Men.



That's more or less my read of it.

Fair enough. My response wasn't really directed at you, rather those that accept or promote this POV. Those are also excellent examples.

If there's a fair criticism of Jott from a Cyke fan's standpoint it was that Jean exerted too much control over the relationship, which is where I think, those that preferred him alone or with Emma are coming from. I prefer to think of it as balanced with Scott often leading the way in mutant\X-men affairs (though always relying on Jean's counsel) and Jean in the drivers seat often when it came to their personal lives. I accept that Scott had emotional limitations during his time with Jean so I accept that as appropriate under the circumstances. Oddly enough Emma drove almost all of her and Scott's relationship progressions as well during the initial years and he mostly seemed to be along for the ride. Do I detect a pattern?

[Ulfhammer]

Nope. Sorry. Not buying it.

The central conflict of AvX was contrived bullshit. Didn't make sense given the teams' histories. Scott, Cap, and most of the key cast were all portrayed massively out of character to force the story.

Had Cap and Scott been written in-character, there would've been no story.

Let's put aside AvX for the time being because that sucks everyone into the same arguments. Both before AvX and after, the Avengers mostly pushed the repressive gov't agenda of the day. Cap finally admitted this on panel at one point, that they'd not done anything like enough when it came to mutant persecution. Maybe I dreamed that up, but I'm sure I read it somewhere. Of course I can't recall the issue now.

True, but it could've formed the basis for some fantastic hatesex.

I was thinking the same thing, but it didn't pass the brain to keyboard filter

[CuteClops]

Agreed,if Scott was 'just' defined by Jean she wouldn't have had much difficult time convincing Scott to let go of the X-men. Sometimes it feels like people read Cyclops' history through a wiki article or something.THE difference between Scott, then & now was that he stopped blindly following Xavier and took the matter into his own hands.

Tell that to the people who say that Cyclops "died" after Jean, or for those who hate Cyclops after Morrison, that is, after Jean. Or for those who, when they speak of Cyclops, they speak of Jean, or vice versa.

[wano]

Let's put aside AvX for the time being because that sucks everyone into the same arguments. Both before AvX and after, the Avengers mostly pushed the repressive gov't agenda of the day. Cap finally admitted this on panel at one point, that they'd not done anything like enough when it came to mutant persecution. Maybe I dreamed that up, but I'm sure I read it somewhere. Of course I can't recall the issue now.



I was thinking the same thing, but it didn't pass the brain to keyboard filter

Well humans and avengers did jackshit when mutants were killed left and right by the terrigen mists

[wano]

Tell that to the people who say that Cyclops "died" after Jean, or for those who hate Cyclops after Morrison, that is, after Jean. Or for those who, when they speak of Cyclops, they speak of Jean, or vice versa.

They aren't real Scott fans, they probably never liked him in the first place so it's a waste of time to listen to them. It's like trying to find an objective opinion on Cyclops from that hack Chris Sims or Jason Aaron or Rick Remender, the latter two are good writers tough.

Anyways, best option is defend and argue, as we've always done