Could there be any truth to this?

[starlight25]

User stanlos commented that writer Byrne once said, that there seems to be those in key positions that are very interested in making WW small and less than secondary. Can that be true? I mean what would be the point?, specially now that she has proven her potential once again with her 2017 film. What could anybody gain by doing this?

[Agent Z]

I don't know if there is much truth to it. She could just be another victim of DC's apathy towards characters that aren't Superman or Batman.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't know if there is much truth to it. She could just be another victim of DC's apathy towards characters that aren't Superman or Batman.

They and WB display plenty of apathy towards Superman too.

They pretty much only love Batman, which is why they ran to rush him into live action again at the soonest available opportunity. Which means that they likely don't deliberately make Wonder Woman smaller or have any malice towards her, they just don't know how to consistently capitalize on her potential popularity. She comes a distant second to Batman and his world, same as everyone else (including Superman). With her though, there is perhaps some unconscious sexism in play that wouldn't be in place for other major characters.

[Ascended]

They and WB display plenty of apathy towards Superman too.

They pretty much only love Batman, which is why they ran to rush him into live action again at the soonest available opportunity. Which means that they likely don't deliberately make Wonder Woman smaller or have any malice towards her, they just don't know how to consistently capitalize on her potential popularity. She comes a distant second to Batman and his world, same as everyone else (including Superman). With her though, there is perhaps some unconscious sexism in play that wouldn't be in place for other major characters.

This.

Im sure Diana is a character a lot of management doesn't really "get." She's a complex and unique character, quite different from many of DC's core stable of IP's. Even a lot of creators have talked about how they've struggled to figure her out and find the balance in her many contradictions (warrior/diplomat) and portrayals.

And certainly there have been individuals who have viewed her more poorly than they should due to some degree of sexism, either subconsciously or otherwise. DC's employees aren't necessarily as open minded and noble as the characters they write and manage.

But I do think the biggest problem is apathy. DC and WB simply don't value any IP other than Batman and don't understand the appeal of IP's that arent Batman, which is why you so often see them force other characters into Bat-shapes, like when Barry Allen's mother was killed for "pathos" or even Diana's powerless, super spy era.

And Superman is no better off, really. DC might value him slightly higher than other properties, but he's still down in the muck with everyone else while the Bat, and the Bat alone, is put on a pedestal.

[SiegePerilous02]

They don't value any of their major IPs nearly as much as they should. And the further down you go, the lesser properties are gonna get it even worse.

They blamed the character of Wonder Woman's "difficulty" for why they sat on a film for her for so long, and only just got around to a film series for her. And they are not doing much elsewhere, no cartoons and video games in sight. Superman meanwhile gets more stuff, but it's generally in the hands of creators who are not as excited about him as they are about Batman, and when his media fails to land, they blame the character's "outdatedness" or "lack of appeal" or "difficulty" instead of their own creative decisions.

It's two piles of crap that smell slightly differently, and maybe one pile (Wonder Woman) is a bit bigger. But it's still crap all the same. Some of DC's and WB's creative decisions over the years make me wonder if they really deserve ownership of the characters they have, even if they sometimes get some good creators* in their employ who don't share their apathy.

*Like Jenkins, Nolan and hopefully Wan and Sandberg on the film front, and any number of comics creators who did good work but ultimately don't own the characters.

[starlight25]

This.

Im sure Diana is a character a lot of management doesn't really "get." She's a complex and unique character, quite different from many of DC's core stable of IP's. Even a lot of creators have talked about how they've struggled to figure her out and find the balance in her many contradictions (warrior/diplomat) and portrayals.

And certainly there have been individuals who have viewed her more poorly than they should due to some degree of sexism, either subconsciously or otherwise. DC's employees aren't necessarily as open minded and noble as the characters they write and manage.

But I do think the biggest problem is apathy. DC and WB simply don't value any IP other than Batman and don't understand the appeal of IP's that arent Batman, which is why you so often see them force other characters into Bat-shapes, like when Barry Allen's mother was killed for "pathos" or even Diana's powerless, super spy era.

And Superman is no better off, really. DC might value him slightly higher than other properties, but he's still down in the muck with everyone else while the Bat, and the Bat alone, is put on a pedestal.

But superman is not getting nerfed as often as WW. And his villains are also more respected when writers use them.

Remember when marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero? Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

[SiegePerilous02]

But superman is not getting nerfed as often as WW. And his villains are also more respected when writers use them.

Remember when marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero? Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her baly.

They generally only use the same couple of Superman villains, they don't delve into his lore that deeply. He also got turned into a villain along with her in Injustice. And even before the DCEU started to go off the rails, they didn't seem to have any interest in doing more solo films for him and cut out a lot of his scenes in the historic big team up movie with the almighty Batman. They then said JL would be this take's last change to win over the audience, and then proceeded to leave him out of the marketing almost completely, gave him only ten minutes in the movie, and horrible CGI lips. And then blamed the character and the actor for the lack of interest for a new Superman movie, even though he was one of the few things (along with Diana) that audiences seemed to like in that dumpster fire of a movie.

While it's also true they nerf her far more often than him, him being the benchmark for power also makes him the bigger target. Whenever it comes time to prop up another superhero, "they can totally beat up Superman" is the go to trope. Whenever they twist it back around to making him stronger, there is backlash from fanboys.

It cannot be disputed that DC and WB consistently treat Wonder Woman worse, especially in regards to the consistency of her power levels and lack of respect for her villains. But just because Superman gets treated better (and c'mon, that's a very low bar to clear) doesn't mean he generally gets treated well. Both characters deserve far better treatment than WB/DC typically gives them, especially as they are ostensibly 2/3 of their biggest characters. Wonder Woman is the only major IP that is a solo superheroine with her own mythos, and the entire genre as we know it exists because of the success of Superman and the rush to ape said success. But their favorite pet is Batman.

[Geraldofrivia]

User stanlos commented that writer Byrne once said, that there seems to be those in key positions that are very interested in making WW small and less than secondary. Can that be true? I mean what would be the point?, specially now that she has proven her potential once again with her 2017 film. What could anybody gain by doing this?

Perez quit DC, disgusted at DC treatment of WW in 1990s.

[kjn]

@starlight25: Do you have the original quote or reference handy? It's kinda tricky to discuss based on a third-hand remembered discussion.

I'm not sure there is any malus against Wonder Woman among DC editors or writers, and I'm not sure one should assume there is without any form of direct evidence or quotations. But going from the various ways that Wonder Woman has been handled, I do think that a lot of them have unexamined biases in the form of puritanism or misogyny, that shaped the way they viewed and imagined Wonder Woman or other female superheroes. At most, I think one can guess that since Wonder Woman has been around for longer, was built around more explicit politics, and has been written by more writers, all those factors can be viewed much more strongly in her.

[starlight25]

@starlight25: Do you have the original quote or reference handy? It's kinda tricky to discuss based on a third-hand remembered discussion.

I'm not sure there is any malus against Wonder Woman among DC editors or writers, and I'm not sure one should assume there is without any form of direct evidence or quotations. But going from the various ways that Wonder Woman has been handled, I do think that a lot of them have unexamined biases in the form of puritanism or misogyny, that shaped the way they viewed and imagined Wonder Woman or other female superheroes. At most, I think one can guess that since Wonder Woman has been around for longer, was built around more explicit politics, and has been written by more writers, all those factors can be viewed much more strongly in her.

In the thread what the hell is snyder doing, page number 3. There you can read his post where he said that.


When marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

Here is the interview with priest where he said what i commented earlier.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/ww.html

[kjn]

In the thread what the hell is snyder doing, page number 3. There you can read his post where he said that.

Thanks; didn't help much, sadly.

When marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

Here is the interview with priest where he said what i commented earlier.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/ww.html

I sat down and read it, and I get a wholly different impression of Priest's view of Wonder Woman. Now, it's a bit histrionic in places, but it has some really interesting insights as well, especially once one remembers that Priest is a black American.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

[starlight25]

Thanks; didn't help much, sadly.



I sat down and read it, and I get a wholly different impression of Priest's view of Wonder Woman. Now, it's a bit histrionic in places, but it has some really interesting insights as well, especially once one remembers that Priest is a black American.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

There are plenty of interesting things to say about her. If they aren't allowed then that is an evidence that people in high postions don't want her character to be more successful.

[Agent Z]

Thanks; didn't help much, sadly.



I sat down and read it, and I get a wholly different impression of Priest's view of Wonder Woman. Now, it's a bit histrionic in places, but it has some really interesting insights as well, especially once one remembers that Priest is a black American.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

I find his claim that all writers feel handcuffed off given that lack of consistency is one of Diana’s most noted problems. How exactly are they being hand cuffed when they can come in and do whatever they want, igniting the previous run.

[Joao]

Perez quit DC, disgusted at DC treatment of WW in 1990s.

Sorry, do you have an interview or something that backs up that info? I'm studying Perez's run and that would be of great help!

[Geraldofrivia]

Sorry, do you have an interview or something that backs up that info? I'm studying Perez's run and that would be of great help!

It's from Perez Wikipedia article.
[IIt was during this run in 1991 that Pérez encountered problems working with DC.[44] Pérez has stated that since the storyline's inception, which ran through the Wonder Woman comic and crossed over into others, he had trouble writing the War of the Gods storyline, mostly due to editorial problems.[44] Pérez felt that DC was not doing enough to celebrate Wonder Woman's 50-year anniversary.[16] To make matters worse in his eyes, DC did not place War of the Gods in newsstand distribution, which meant that the comic book could only be found in comics specialty shops. Pérez had built up a plot to marry the characters Steve Trevor and Etta Candy in his final issue. When he discovered that DC editors had decided to not only pass the Wonder Woman title's writing to William Messner-Loebs and have Messner-Loebs write the final wedding scene, Pérez quit the title and separated himself from DC for several years.[44] In 1992, he was guest inker on Deathstroke the Terminator issues #10-11.

Also in 1991, Pérez signed on to pencil the six-issue limited series Infinity Gauntlet for Marvel Comics, which was written by Jim Starlin.[45] However, due to the turbulence happening concurrently with War of the Gods, this was a very stressful personal period for Pérez, and he was not able to finish penciling the entire run of Infinity Gauntlet, leaving the project part way through issue #4. The Infinity Gauntlet editorial team decided to find a replacement artist to finish the miniseries, and Ron Lim was the artist chosen (although Pérez offered to remain on as the inker over Lim's cover art for the remainder of the miniseries).

Because of the debacles over War of the Gods and The Infinity Gauntlet, Pérez began to gain a reputation as a creator who could not finish projects as planned. Furthering that impression, he worked with independent comic book publishers Malibu Comics, drawing Break-Thru and Ultraforce (both titles were part of Malibu's Ultraverse imprint), and then working at Tekno Comix drawing I-Bots. However, despite being paid well by both publishers, he had no enthusiasm drawing the characters, and lost interest in drawing the titles.[/I]