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  1. #16
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    They left Patty alone with her WW movie because they were sure it would bomb. They have no faith in her, nor in any IP that’s not Batgod to be perfectly honest. Where’s Diana’s video game? Why have they done such a poor job of capitalizing on the success of her movie? Because WB is utterly incompetent and doesn’t see the value of any non-Batman IP. I’m hoping that the non-Batman movies seem to be doing well means they will treat her better in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    They left Patty alone with her WW movie because they were sure it would bomb. They have no faith in her, nor in any IP that’s not Batgod to be perfectly honest. Where’s Diana’s video game? Why have they done such a poor job of capitalizing on the success of her movie? Because WB is utterly incompetent and doesn’t see the value of any non-Batman IP. I’m hoping that the non-Batman movies seem to be doing well means they will treat her better in the future.
    That doesn't explain why they nerf her in the comics. Or why aquaman has more events than her this decade and does more things than her who is just there in JL. Or how aquaman has a better lifting feat in his movie than her. So they have more faith in aquaman, despite the fact he hasn't achieved as much as her?

  3. #18
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    That doesn't explain why they nerf her in the comics. Or why aquaman has more events than her this decade and does more things than her who is just there in JL. Or how aquaman has a better lifting feat in his movie than her. So they have more faith in aquaman, despite the fact he hasn't achieved as much as her?
    If Diana appears less powerful in the comics (and I don’t think she is) I think that can be blamed on how there’s no WW editorial group to keep track of her specifically. I believe she’s edited under the Bat-Editorial. Snyder billed Drowned Earth as a “WW and Aquaman” story. I think Arthur got more focus because his movie comes out so soon, and because Snyder has trouble with his reach exceeding his grasp.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    I don't blame anybody but DC and WB. All the writers that nerf her and her villains, and constantly change her origin and stuff. Like i said before, even aquaman has more exposure in comics like jl and does more than her, he has had more events centered around him too this decade. In his movie he lifted a submarine. WW best strength feat in DCEU so far is lifting a 29 tons tank.

    If Cheetah is supposed to be powered up by a God and be able to fight WW. Then she should be treated better. And be able to hang with other heavy hitters including superman. Ares is a God and his power and fight in the film was not amazing, like i would expect from a final battle between 2 Gods. I hope the second film shows us a more powerful WW and cCheetah. Because i'm tired of all the talkig and no actual evidence of any of the things that are mentioned. Powerful this, powerful that. Well then show it for heaven sake.

    So there are probably people in DC and WB that don't want to see her shine too much. Based on what priest said.
    In fairness, lifting the tank is happening in her origin story where her powers are developing and she doesn't know what she's fully capable of yet. Jenkins started here there, doesn't necessarily mean she will keep her there. Like all the Amazons (including her) acting shocked when she sent out that power wave that knocked Antiope over, and her not expecting her fingers to be able to punch through concrete when climbing that tower. Arthur has been living with his powers longer and this is post-JL, Diana is just starting out in her film on her first adventure.

    Defeating Ares with love and God powers is exactly what she needed to do. Expecting a big titanic violent fight to work against the God of violence, war and bloodshed doesn't make much narrative sense. They pretty much depicted him as Gods and Mortals did. And Cheetah is not a direct powerful threat the way Ares is, so I'm not sure what we can expect from her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    In fairness, lifting the tank is happening in her origin story where her powers are developing and she doesn't know what she's fully capable of yet. Jenkins started here there, doesn't necessarily mean she will keep her there. Like all the Amazons (including her) acting shocked when she sent out that power wave that knocked Antiope over, and her not expecting her fingers to be able to punch through concrete when climbing that tower. Arthur has been living with his powers longer and this is post-JL, Diana is just starting out in her film on her first adventure.

    Defeating Ares with love and God powers is exactly what she needed to do. Expecting a big titanic violent fight to work against the God of violence, war and bloodshed doesn't make much narrative sense. They pretty much depicted him as Gods and Mortals did. And Cheetah is not a direct powerful threat the way Ares is, so I'm not sure what we can expect from her.
    Point is that she discovered her powers and that final battle still didn't feel epic power-wise.

    Cheetah is supposed to be her archy villain. She is supposed to have Godly powers that make her capable of going toe to toe with WW. So i would expect big things, but that is hardly ever the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If Diana appears less powerful in the comics (and I don’t think she is) I think that can be blamed on how there’s no WW editorial group to keep track of her specifically. I believe she’s edited under the Bat-Editorial. Snyder billed Drowned Earth as a “WW and Aquaman” story. I think Arthur got more focus because his movie comes out so soon, and because Snyder has trouble with his reach exceeding his grasp.
    That doesn't seem to be a problem with others that don't have their own editorial.

    drowned world was all about aquaman. WW was just there same as Cheetah. He has had more events this decade than her.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt there are anyone at DC actively trying to sabotage Wonder Woman. Or to put it another way: never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity or, perhaps more likely in this case, incompetence.

    I think there are two fundamental aspects at odds here. The first is that Wonder Woman is one of DC's cash cows. Maybe not so much on the comics side, but on merchandising. That's likely worth millions of dollars every year for DC and WB, and is probably the largest guarantee for that Wonder Woman will continue in regular publication as a comic. It also means that DC is exceedingly careful on how they treat her: don't rock the boat. I think Priest's article that was discussed earlier gives some strong arguments for this.

    The second is that, for various reasons, Wonder Woman is both mutable in some core aspects and a lot of writers and editors have trouble handling her. They simply don't understand some aspect of her character, or worse, feel threatened by some aspects of her character. You need some grounding in feminist (or queer) theory in order to update Marston's early feminism and gender essentialism into something that isn't a caricature. You need to be kink- and sex-positive in order to not fall into the Pérez trap of the pure virginal goddess. You need to be able to imagine a non-capitalist matriarchal utopia in order to create Themyscira, and then use that to form Diana's reactions to—and critique of—Man's World. The list can quite possibly be made longer. You need to be able to write a woman who grew up wholly outside the patriarchy, and is both unfettered by it and likely disgusted by it. And by a lot else in it.

    One of the core insights that Gail Simone had about the character of Poison Ivy was tossed off offhand in Batgirl Annual 2014: "Just the act of being Pamela was apparently a rebellion". And Wonder Woman has that same quality in even higher amounts; I doubt it's a surprise that both of them suffers from constant reimaginings.

    I mentioned that core aspects of Wonder Woman are mutable. Simply put: we can easily imagine core elements of the background of Superman and Batman. Superman grew up in a small farm in Kansas: that's one of the core myths of American life right there, and families very much existed when Superman was created, and still do to some extent. Superman grew up in one of the core ideal images of American life. Batman grew up in a rich and successful urban family, but had his parents murdered. Again, he comes from a place that is easy to imagine and place within American ideals. But Diana? There are no mythical all-female technologically advanced isolated civilisations around. That's a big part why Themyscira and her family is thrown hither and thither in continuity, because there is no shared image of what it should be.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    Point is that she discovered her powers and that final battle still didn't feel epic power-wise.
    The final movie battle was not your standard superhero battle. It was a battle for Diana's soul. That's stakes enough for me. True epicness is not measured in collateral damage anyway.

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    I don't blame anybody but DC and WB. All the writers that nerf her and her villains, and constantly change her origin and stuff. Like i said before, even aquaman has more exposure in comics like jl and does more than her, he has had more events centered around him too this decade. In his movie he lifted a submarine. WW best strength feat in DCEU so far is lifting a 29 tons tank.

    If Cheetah is supposed to be powered up by a God and be able to fight WW. Then she should be treated better. And be able to hang with other heavy hitters including superman. Ares is a God and his power and fight in the film was not amazing, like i would expect from a final battle between 2 Gods. I hope the second film shows us a more powerful WW and cCheetah. Because i'm tired of all the talkig and no actual evidence of any of the things that are mentioned. Powerful this, powerful that. Well then show it for heaven sake.

    So there are probably people in DC and WB that don't want to see her shine too much. Based on what priest said.
    Yeah, there was a comic where Barbara Minerva got sucker punched and knocked out while fighting Batman and Catwoman...

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    Point is that she discovered her powers and that final battle still didn't feel epic power-wise.

    Cheetah is supposed to be her archy villain. She is supposed to have Godly powers that make her capable of going toe to toe with WW. So i would expect big things, but that is hardly ever the case.
    Like kjn said, the conflict with Ares is more about a philosophical victory. You do not defeat the God of War with a big spectacle and violence. In fact, the major figures who emerged in Wonder Woman's rogues gallery do not lend themselves to that kind of spectacle really. Dr. Psycho is all about the mind games. Veronica Cale is a behind the scenes manipulator who uses her resources to recruit other villains as muscle. Circe is a powerful spell caster who can engage Diana directly, but generally not with fisticuffs. Poor Giganta is never that impressive, and hopefully Wilson can change that if she ever uses her. Medusa can cause a lot of damage, but mostly with her gaze and not feats of strength.

    Cheetah has Godly powers, which means Batman has no business defeating her. But the battle for Cheetah's soul has always been at the core of her character, going back to Priscilla Rich and to the present with Barbara Ann. Diana tries to help reform her, and the conflict comes with her inability to do so despite some instances of short term progress. She is powerful enough to take some hits from Diana and fast and strong enough to hurt her, but I don't think we should expect a big blow out with her. There will be a fight, but it might be small, personal and ugly. And if that results in a more powerful story, then it's probably for the best.

    Wilson wants to make this "Superhero Sandman." Which may mean less feats and superhero battles, but the Sandman had little to none of that and is one of the most highly acclaimed comic runs of all time. Wonder Woman, going back to the Marston stories, lends herself to that kind of storytelling. Which may mean less action in every issue, but if the end product is deeper and has something interesting to say, than it might be worth it. Justice League, on the other hand, should pick up the slack and deliver the type of storytelling that allows all of its members to be at the top of their game.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The final movie battle was not your standard superhero battle. It was a battle for Diana's soul. That's stakes enough for me. True epicness is not measured in collateral damage anyway.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, there was a comic where Barbara Minerva got sucker punched and knocked out while fighting Batman and Catwoman...
    Shh, we should never speak of that again.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Like kjn said, the conflict with Ares is more about a philosophical victory. You do not defeat the God of War with a big spectacle and violence. In fact, the major figures who emerged in Wonder Woman's rogues gallery do not lend themselves to that kind of spectacle really. Dr. Psycho is all about the mind games. Veronica Cale is a behind the scenes manipulator who uses her resources to recruit other villains as muscle. Circe is a powerful spell caster who can engage Diana directly, but generally not with fisticuffs. Poor Giganta is never that impressive, and hopefully Wilson can change that if she ever uses her. Medusa can cause a lot of damage, but mostly with her gaze and not feats of strength.

    Cheetah has Godly powers, which means Batman has no business defeating her. But the battle for Cheetah's soul has always been at the core of her character, going back to Priscilla Rich and to the present with Barbara Ann. Diana tries to help reform her, and the conflict comes with her inability to do so despite some instances of short term progress. She is powerful enough to take some hits from Diana and fast and strong enough to hurt her, but I don't think we should expect a big blow out with her. There will be a fight, but it might be small, personal and ugly. And if that results in a more powerful story, then it's probably for the best.

    Wilson wants to make this "Superhero Sandman." Which may mean less feats and superhero battles, but the Sandman had little to none of that and is one of the most highly acclaimed comic runs of all time. Wonder Woman, going back to the Marston stories, lends herself to that kind of storytelling. Which may mean less action in every issue, but if the end product is deeper and has something interesting to say, than it might be worth it. Justice League, on the other hand, should pick up the slack and deliver the type of storytelling that allows all of its members to be at the top of their game.



    Yep.



    Shh, we should never speak of that again.
    Marston WW had both. Storytelling and great feats of power. I don't think i should pay too much attention to what ggw said, because no matter what writers say. The truth is WW hasn't beeng gettig many feats and superhero battles for a while. So if her run ends up being another run with no powerhouse WW, that is just another run to add to the list. A hero is as good as their villains. If WW vaillains are not treated right, and are used as fodder for batman. Then nothing good can come out of that.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    If WW vaillains are not treated right, and are used as fodder for batman...
    Darkseid was once used as fodder for Batman.

    I quite enjoyed Batman when he was the World's Greatest Detective. Now he's the World's Greatest Everything, and I find him boring. And I'm having a hard time remembering the last time he did any interesting detectiving.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  13. #28
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    Byrne wrote WW 20 years ago. I believe it's possible that that was the case then, or that at least, that was his perception then. I doubt this is still the case.

    WW was a slippery property for DC for years - not popular enough as a series in terms of sales figures to really justify continued publication but for the Marston agreement and the licensing rights, which WERE profitable enough to justify keeping the property. And Jenette Kahn also wanted the property to succeed, and she was both pragmatic and obviously the last word when president.

    Does there need to be more evidence than the fact that no writer had submitted a proposal that both celebrated and re-established Diana for a late 20th century audience well into Crisis of Infinite Earths, and that Karen Berger was beyond thrilled Perez expressed possible interest? The property was viewed as both toxic and hopelessly convoluted. Even though there were clearly pre-crisis writers who really were interested in Diana, like Conway, Thomas, and Mishkin, they couldn't produce the kind of stories to pull up her sales in the still overwhelmingly sexist environment that was the early 80s. But Conway (though many of stories are boring) at least upped her profile in JLA, Thomas established two villains who have remained high profile villains through subsequent iterations (Circe & Silver Swan), and Mishkin did his best to expand her supporting cast and keep it somewhat stable. No one could or stayed around long enough to fix the decades of Kanigher's inattention, giant animal threats, and complete disinterest in giving Diana a viable supporting cast that wasn't endlessly self-referential.

    Honestly, think what you will of Perez' run, I think it took that caliber of investment AND a generation of writers and artists who grew up with a Wonder Woman whose world was truly developed. I think it took people my age and younger entering the industry and becoming part of the DC machine to say "Hey - this is a viable character with great potential and a distinct voice that isn't contradictory or shallow. I *want* to work on this character.

    I mean, hell - Byrne drew, wrote, and lettered the title...not because he wanted to (or maybe he did?), but, as Paul Kupperberg explained in a lettercol, because that was the only way DC could afford to have Byrne on the title. They couldn't (or wouldn't) pay Byrne his fee and pay any artist and letterer. And Byrne wanted to exert his creative force on the third of the "Big Three" that he hadn't spent much time on.

    A million things could have happened to WW post-crisis - one writer wanted her to be raped on arrival, others wanted to replace her with someone new - but I'm grateful Perez got the property, and I think it took those five stable years that he worked on the title to re-establish the image of WW to a new generation as a viable character, not a complicated cipher, to the up and coming presence at DC.

    I don't have a hard time believing that's what Byrne encountered or perceived when he was on the title, only 5 years after Perez left, but I think that's not likely to be the view of DC today.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    Marston WW had both. Storytelling and great feats of power. I don't think i should pay too much attention to what ggw said, because no matter what writers say. The truth is WW hasn't beeng gettig many feats and superhero battles for a while. So if her run ends up being another run with no powerhouse WW, that is just another run to add to the list. A hero is as good as their villains. If WW vaillains are not treated right, and are used as fodder for batman. Then nothing good can come out of that.
    Marston did it a lot and did it well, but he also had her get knocked out by a blow to the head from Hypnota, frequently tied up and thrown into vats of milk, and Priscilla Rich (at this point just a crazy woman in cheetah print pajamas) outran her even though she was "faster than Mercury." I don't see a mere mortal knocking out Wonder Woman with a blow to the head in Wilson's run, most modern writers are already more consistent than he was. If Wilson can balance superhuman feats with deeper storytelling that will be ideal, but if she focuses on other stuff than action, than it shouldn't be dismissed. Good storytelling and character development trumps mindless spectacle.

    I'm already not looking forward to these talkback threads if posters are going into it with a checklist of things WW needs to do in order for this run to be a success, and if she's not living up to their standards, the run is a failure regardless of whatever else is going on. There are other things to discuss, like world building. Wonder Woman has a terrible problem in that area.

    Raw power is not the only way to measure a good villain. Since Rebirth, Veronica Cale and Dr. Cyber are better villains than the First Born and Doomsday, and they can't hit as hard as he can or hold open a Boom Tube. Most of her rogues gallery in the Golden Age were not raw powerhouses as we come to think of the term today. They were weirdos in garish costumes that tried to tie her up a lot. They were still fascinating though, and it was the best her rogues gallery has ever been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    Darkseid was once used as fodder for Batman.

    I quite enjoyed Batman when he was the World's Greatest Detective. Now he's the World's Greatest Everything, and I find him boring. And I'm having a hard time remembering the last time he did any interesting detectiving.
    I still love that Batman. Bronze Age Batman is where it's at.

    This...thing they've turned him into over the years is not for me. Some writers can do Bat-God well. Morrison is one of the few who can do it and have him defeat a Darkseid plot in a way that makes sense. Bruce Timm meanwhile just has him outrun the Omega Beam because he's just that awesome...

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Marston did it a lot and did it well, but he also had her get knocked out by a blow to the head from Hypnota, frequently tied up and thrown into vats of milk, and Priscilla Rich (at this point just a crazy woman in cheetah print pajamas) outran her even though she was "faster than Mercury." I don't see a mere mortal knocking out Wonder Woman with a blow to the head in Wilson's run, most modern writers are already more consistent than he was. If Wilson can balance superhuman feats with deeper storytelling that will be ideal, but if she focuses on other stuff than action, than it shouldn't be dismissed. Good storytelling and character development trumps mindless spectacle.

    I'm already not looking forward to these talkback threads if posters are going into it with a checklist of things WW needs to do in order for this run to be a success, and if she's not living up to their standards, the run is a failure regardless of whatever else is going on. There are other things to discuss, like world building. Wonder Woman has a terrible problem in that area.

    Raw power is not the only way to measure a good villain. Since Rebirth, Veronica Cale and Dr. Cyber are better villains than the First Born and Doomsday, and they can't hit as hard as he can or hold open a Boom Tube. Most of her rogues gallery in the Golden Age were not raw powerhouses as we come to think of the term today. They were weirdos in garish costumes that tried to tie her up a lot. They were still fascinating though, and it was the best her rogues gallery has ever been.



    I still love that Batman. Bronze Age Batman is where it's at.

    This...thing they've turned him into over the years is not for me. Some writers can do Bat-God well. Morrison is one of the few who can do it and have him defeat a Darkseid plot in a way that makes sense. Bruce Timm meanwhile just has him outrun the Omega Beam because he's just that awesome...
    Marston more than once found ways to have people with no powers pose a threat. By using their brain. Finding artefacts, etc. He wasn't always consistent, but writers today aren't either.

    His WW was a powerhouse. While also talking about equal rights, sexual liberation for women, sexism, homosexuality, etc. In a very conservative era like the 40s. While this decade WW is weaker, and many of her appearances only have one dimensional, generic stories. Power and storytelling are both essential in WW in my opinion. I won't judge Wilson's run until we are more issues into her run. But based on past experiences with WW this decade. I just don't want to have many expectations just in case i can be disappointed again.

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